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How are they increasing mag range?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2011 at 13:06
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I am curious as to how they are increasing magnification ratio and if it is having an effect on image quality.  Originally we had a 3x range and most variable scopes were in the 3 - 9 variable class.   Then they moved to 4X and we have scopes such as a 3 - 12 or 4 - 16.   Now we have 5X and 6X (such as the Swarovski Z6 series where you can get a 5 - 30 X 50 or other similar spaced ranges.  Now I hear they are moving to 8X ranges sometime this year.   This is wonderful news for those of us who want it all (great field of view and high magnification when needed) but does it come at a price in quality?   Can someone tell us how it is suddenly happening that this range is increasing?    What are they doing internally and how does it effect reliability and image quality.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2011 at 13:22
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It is happening because dedicated, educated, and innovative engineers are making it happen through hard work in design.

Some systems might compromise on image, but others will still have excellent images.  Quality comes as a result of an excellent total optical system.

The 10x March scopes are supposed to be optically comparable to the very best.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2011 at 13:57
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My experiences with higher ration mags like the Z6 from Swaro have been great, no loss in image quality due to larger mag range.

It is happening because technology now allows for more options.

The tactical market has exploded over the past few year, leading many scope makers to spend considerably more on competitive products.

That it didn't happen sooner, I blame Leupold.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2011 at 14:08
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Originally posted by Rancid Coolaid Rancid Coolaid wrote:

My experiences with higher ration mags like the Z6 from Swaro have been great, no loss in image quality due to larger mag range.

It is happening because technology now allows for more options.

The tactical market has exploded over the past few year, leading many scope makers to spend considerably more on competitive products.

That it didn't happen sooner, I blame Leupold.
Elaborate?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2011 at 14:49
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No innovation for the greater part of 20 years on the part of the self-professed market leader.

When others' saw the money to be made, many began investing and innovating, leaving Leupold in the dust.

Competition is a great thing, Leupold had almost none for many years.

Now they do, and they ain't stacking up so good.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2011 at 15:24
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I agree with that
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/29/2011 at 22:10
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For the Record.

I had purchased 2 z6 5-30's they cannot be beat in my opinion Glass for Glass...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2011 at 05:54
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SVT and Rancid I am not so sure I would agree with that 100%. While there may be some truth that Leupold has not been the trend setter in development of new style scopes it has only been since the90's that the shooting market has changed so dramatically. Until about 10 years ago the market was dominated by hunters that were more interested in lightweight practical hunting scopes of medium power or target and varmint shooters that used high power target type scopes. Since that time the market has moved away from traditional hunting/shooting to being more dominated by shooters that either fancy themselves tactical night time what I refer to as the ninja warriors or hunters that have bought into the "trophy hunter" idea popularized on the TV shows and think they need a hubble telescope on their deer whanger. So yes Leupold may be a bit slow to pickup this trend but there are still a bunch of folks that still look for the dependability and long time service that leupold is famous for. A good illustration of how the market has changed may be a post a few weeks ago where Koskin posted about a scope he has remarking how after nearly 10 years it was still working fine like that was an accomplishment. Two things sort of struck me ironic about that. One Koskin I don't believe is much of a hunter that bounces his rifles around in a vehicle or uses it in the rain and bad weather. I get the impression he is instead more of a range/target shooter and second most of my scopes date back to the 70's and 80's and I still consider them to be very serviceable scopes. I'm not criticizing here but I think it is a excellent illustration of how the market has changed between the boomers and later generations in the past few years.

Edited by powderburn - June/30/2011 at 05:56
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2011 at 07:46
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Get Your Popcorn Ready
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2011 at 08:39
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I am a young whipper snapper and foolish enough to reply to a very off topic post.

I first and foremost do understand putting more than just dinner or a trophy on the line vs. your life.

Leupold more than any other brand is a  USA manufacturer that I had to depend on.  That is what they were issued on some weapons platforms.

I have seem them fail miserably and have thought of them as extremely antiquated and out-dated when compared to any other contract optic.

NOW for the Surprise.

I like the old M-8's or Gold Ring's Have 1 on a .280Rem A Bolt II Stainless Stalker 1. On a 338 Lapua Sako M95. and I like the older Redfields Have 3 1 on .280 Remington Steyr ProHunter or 96 SBS, 1 on a Steyr .270WIN (laugh it up fuzzballs) 1 on a Steyr .243WIN SBS 96.

1. I know I will never be able to get rid of for how much I think they are worth...
2. That they offer the tremendous ability to make the sides of the ocular piece disappear as well as they do.
3. Are as lightweight and compact as they are.
4. Have the ability to have very natural light be broadcast through them.

Now for the issues with the above scopes...

They quite simply cannot compare with the newer scopes in production and very simply pu t now that Leupold owns Redfield I do not believe they will ever be able to compete in the market place when it comes to the Optical Performance of the Newer Scopes that have not proven themselves as reliable, but when compared side by side you can clearly see and feel that they are better and more precisely manufactured.  Their adjustments are weak and sketchy and are just flimsy compared to the newer manufactured that I have seen.  The glass is yellow and dim.  They just cannot compete or in my opinion are optically challenged.

Manufacturing has changed and technology has changed. Leupold is just a lot slower with applying the newer, better, even less costly methods of producing a higher quality scope and or adopting the higher quality glass...and very frankly providing a more superior product to our troops rather than just a mediocre "It has worked just fine for years"...


Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - June/30/2011 at 08:55
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2011 at 08:52
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I agree with that Statement 100%!  Leupold is the Detroit of the optics market!  Way back when they were the big boys on the block and laughed at these pipsqueaks playing "Optics Manufacturers".  They sat back on the butts an got the stool kicked out from under them.  They better pull their heads out of their rears and start earning the name recognition again.  Cause frankly in my opinion the "Ol' Gold Ring Ain't what she use to be."   Not even close!



End of Rant!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2011 at 17:07
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You mean that custom colors and flames from the custom shop don't count?Get Your Popcorn Ready
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/30/2011 at 17:16
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All I'm trying to say is I don't agree 100% with the statement that Leupold doesn't respond to their market. Leupold is a company that is still primarily focused on the traditional sporting/hunting scope and the market of buyers that buy a $500 scope thinking it will be left to their grandkids to use. Now that may not be where your interest lies and that's fine but that's where the majority of the quality scope market is today and they are focused on that major market segment which is the reason they are still near the top of the scope heap. 20 years from now when all of us old guys are gone that may not be the case but then there's also a good chance that the younger guys will have in that time amassed a collection of broken scopes from a defunct company or an asian contract house under their workbench that are unrepairable because they were discontinued and parts weren't avaliable for but hey we'll give you an allowance towards someting in our current catalog which means you'll pay about 20% more than you can buy it from SWFA for anyway. Or maybe the younger guys will just say I think I might just get me a Leupold and be done with it because that's their market. That's all I saying. Now anybody in the market for 3-4 old broken scopes.

Edited by powderburn - June/30/2011 at 19:46
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2011 at 07:44
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You argue that other companies won't be around but think about Zeiss, Minox, Vortex, Nikon......should we continue?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2011 at 08:38
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I agree Graham, but then the same case could be said that Zeiss, Swarovski, Nikon and the likes have held back on technology and are just as much to blame as Leupold.  This whole debate is really stupid as far as I'm concerned.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2011 at 13:17
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lucytuma:  You said: "the same case could be said that Zeiss, Swarovski, Nikon and the likes have held back on technology and are just as much to blame as Leupold."

I can't agree with that for either Zeiss or Swarovski.   Swarovski has their Z5 and Z6 extra magnification scopes and has led the pack as far as I can see.   Zeiss keeps improving its coatings and glass.   It is hard to find better glass than either of these two have.

As for Nikon - no argument.   I have not seen comparable improvements in the Nikon camp.  

As far as Leupold goes, they have kept away from the high-end market since they stopped the V-7.   I know they are working on catching up, but my Mark 4 has lesser glass that the second tier alpha scopes (Zeiss Conquest and Swarovski Z3) and doesn't even measure up to my Vortex Viper PST. It does seem like Leupold has some catching up to do.

I didn't start this thread to point at manufacturers, and I am still more interested in the technology than the marketing - but it appears in this instance that marketing might be the root cause.   If there is no pressure to improve then why bother.  It appears the market has changed and some manufacturers are responding more quickly than others.

To restate my question:   How did they do it and did they lose something in the process.    It appears they did not lose anything.   Apparently, the glass is still great (Z6).    It might be too early to tell about durability.

Having said that, it is interesting to look back and see who the recent innovators are. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2011 at 14:32
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I'm curious as when we'll see a 6x erector in a spotting scope, 15-90 or 20-120 would be great. I also see that S&B is using an 8x erector in their Zenith line of scopes.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2011 at 22:02
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its Magic Wizard
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/01/2011 at 23:49
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March is using 1 to 10 zoom ratio, and gives away nothing in size, repeatability, image...They're a marvel. 
 
March has an 8-80x50 scope.  I haven't heard any reports on what the 80X looks like with a 5/8ths exit pupil.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2011 at 05:25
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Lightwind,

 

I am a little surprised by your question. Being one of the few persons who know the exact answer, I will respond you. If we look back, then we will find out that the first recent innovators are from IOR - Romania. In 2004 at the Shot Show in Las Vegas, VALDADA presented the first zoom riflescope with a 6x range, the model 2-12x32. He was followed in the same year by the models 3-18x42 and 1.5-8x26.

 

Bitterroot Bulls is right. Normaly it is about educated, innovative and dedicated engineers. But in this case it was a little different. At first it was the imagination and curiosity of an optical designer who asked himself “why only 3x or 4x  range” and then tried, more as a game, to design a riflescope with a zoom factor 5. To everyone’s surprise he managed to calculate a riflescope with a 6x range. And so began the whole story. Two years later IOR was followed by U.S. Optics with the model 3.2-17x44, then by Swarovski with the Z6 series and now by many others.

In this case at the beginning it was not about high technology and expensive research work. It was more about the imaginative mind of someone passionate by his profession. So it is not to blame Leupold or other important, leading companies. They simply lacked a brilliant mind.

Also for the history of riflescopes you should know that this year the same innovative IOR team presented at the Shot Show in Las Vegas, t  

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2011 at 09:52
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increase of range isn't necessarily a good thing,it depends more on the shooters needs. March's new 80 gives actual visible resolution at 1000yds, and while it will probably become the standard in that game, its hardly the answerfor most shooters. Inreases in mag ratio lead to a larger overall unit size, substantial in some cases, and less than desirable in some cases. IOR's venture into the area with the 3x18 still has a scope with terrible tunneling in the lower ranges, assuming your willing to go through the 2-3 warranty returns to get a good one. Increases in the ratio also do not lead to an inrease in the degrees turned on the dial. So some scopes with high ratios will get from one end to the other in less than 180 deg. turn,  resulting in an almost impossible zoom too fast situation. (4 or 5 is about optimal)

It's not about dedicated engineers yada, yada, (they just follow the money) it's about changes in consumer preference cycles. Leupold can make any scope to any specs the buyers want, assuming they want enough units to make money. The same applies to the other majors. Most new stuff coming out has been the results of large military contracts, not a bunch of hobbyists in sport optics. Only a few have addressed the hobby problem within the cost/benefit package (SWFA to say the least,vortex) characteristic of this target market.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2011 at 12:54
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

It's not about dedicated engineers yada, yada, (they just follow the money) it's about changes in consumer preference cycles.


Market forces (civilian and military) certainly answer the "why" high-ratio scopes have been developed, but that is not how they have been made.

The "how" is due to the work of innovative, hard-working, and dedicated engineers.  I hope they have pride in what they have done in this area.  It is impressive.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2011 at 13:19
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There is nothing new here, just optical physics, been known for years. Whether to dedicate more expensive materials in a more technological efficient matter, may be an issue, but certainly not the science.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2011 at 14:51
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[QUOTE=Ben D.]

Lightwind,

 

I am a little surprised by your question. Being one of the few persons who know the exact answer, I will respond you. If we look back, then we will find out that the first recent innovators are from IOR - Romania. In 2004 at the Shot Show in Las Vegas, VALDADA presented the first zoom riflescope with a 6x range, the model 2-12x32. He was followed in the same year by the models 3-18x42 and 1.5-8x26.

 

Bitterroot Bulls is right. Normaly it is about educated, innovative and dedicated engineers. But in this case it was a little different. At first it was the imagination and curiosity of an optical designer who asked himself “why only 3x or 4x  range” and then tried, more as a game, to design a riflescope with a zoom factor 5. To everyone’s surprise he managed to calculate a riflescope with a 6x range. And so began the whole story. Two years later IOR was followed by U.S. Optics with the model 3.2-17x44, then by Swarovski with the Z6 series and now by many others.

In this case at the beginning it was not about high technology and expensive research work. It was more about the imaginative mind of someone passionate by his profession. So it is not to blame Leupold or other important, leading companies. They simply lacked a brilliant mind.

Also for the history of riflescopes you should know that this year the same innovative IOR team presented

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/02/2011 at 15:20
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Good question Ilya, some things up?
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