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Hensoldt 3-12x56mm FF or S&B 3-12x50mm PM

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 18:23
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NOTE to moderators: I posted same exact question in general Rifle Scopes category since I wasn't sure whether I will get answers in this section of forum or that section of forum. Perhaps both can be somehow cross-linked so anyone who has similar question in future can find the answers?

Hi!

I'm looking to buy a new scope for a brand new Sako TRG-22 (308 Win).

I pretty much know what I want as far as basics are concerned - 30mm or 34mm tube, 3-12 magnification range, illuminated MilDot in first image plane, Zeiss/Hensoldt or Schmidt & Bender.

What I don't know is details about Zeiss/Hensoldt.

Got plenty of information on Schmidt & Bender 3-12x50mm PMII Military (copy of USMC contract version).

Got very little info on Hensoldt.

First of all, is it even sold in US to mere mortals?

Second question is, how does windage/elevation adjustment work on it? S&B has this feature where top would "pop" when you get into second rotation. How does it work on Hensoldt?

Any idea whether Zeiss 3-12x56 Victory Diavari 30mm Sniper Scope listed on SWFA's website is actually what used to be known as Hensoldt?

Best way to mount it? Should I use Zeiss rail system or should I use some high quality rings and mount it on either Picatinny rail or just use straight Sako TRG Tactical Mount?

Any pointers will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/03/2007 at 20:32
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I would probably use the Sako TRG Tac Mount and suspect you will need to go with S B or move to europe.  Diavari is basically a hunting - target scope a really good one.  The Heinsoldt is close to five grand but they wont eaven answer my inquiry about shipping to the US.

 

We call it a search feature

 

http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6952&KW=ko ns

 



Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/04/2007 at 02:23
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Pretty much as I suspected then. I was simply unclear about availability of Hensoldt in US, since some sources said they can be bought here. That "Zeiss sniper" version I referenced above might very well be the Hensoldt simply sold under Zeiss brand name, but since noone from SWFA responded I'm guessing they have no idea what they got.

I could probably order Hensoldt from Europe, it would be around $3K I believe.

Sako TRG Tac mount is an easy choice I guess, but Picatinny is more convenient if I'd want to use any other scope with Picatinny rail. Plus, if I go the route of Hensoldt SSG-P, then Picatinny is the only way. Although I probably would prefer FF version. SSG-P has one significant advantage though. Simply because it's a solid unit there are no issues dealing with cant of reticle in relation to the bore when mounting. Just install it on top of proper Sako Picatinny rail, zero and you're done. With Tac mount it's the usual problem - if you happen to have a cant of half-degree of you reticle in relation to bore you're in worst case scenario off by some 30 MOA, so it's fairly finicky process of initial mounting.

S&B has Gen2 MilDot, which is pretty cool, but Hensoldt comes with reticle #63, which is a standard MilDot with stadia lines (aka Finndot), which is very convenient. Additional problem of this particular S&B is that it seems to have reticle adjustment not square, but following curved path, which may result in 0.03 mrad shift of reticle in one direction when adjusting the other (e.g. shift in elevation when adjusting windage). So, that's 30cm at 1000m, which isn't that big of a deal, but still somewhat disappointing for $2800 scope.

Do you have any personal experience with this model of S&B?

Thanks!



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/04/2007 at 09:45
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http://shop.livioptik.com/osc/index.php?cPath=3_73_82

 

5217559973 New Zeiss 6-24x56 Victory Diavari 30mm Rifle Scope                                                                      New Zeiss 6-24x56 Victory Diavari 30mm Rifle Scope
  • Matte
  • Illuminated Rapid 1000
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
  • Target Knobs
  • LotuTec Protective Coating
SWFA: $2,224.95
More Info... Buy Now

No S&B s, mostly leupold tacticals but I'm up for purchasing either an IOR or S&B and I'm curious about this new Rapid Z reticle

Hensoldt ZF 4-16X56 is the one I really want and there is nothing in the Diavari line like it.

 

 

http://www.zeiss.com/c1256bcf0020be5f/Contents-Frame/3dc0003 746ab21148525726200057786



Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2007 at 16:58
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To each his own I guess. Exit pupil at 16x magnification with 56mm objective is too small for me, since I wear glasses. Mirage would be too pronounced as well, which for me makes it more difficult, not easier. So, 3-12x seems a perfect option for me. I would have considered 4-16x if I were to use it on TRG-42 (or any other 338 Lapua Magnum rifle). But for 308Win I think 3-12x is perfect.

LiviOptik is Italian, correct? I don't have any idea if they ship to US or not, but I will send an email. Worst case scenario they won't respond. Considering I already got responses from two other places it would be fine either way.

I have to day though that I would have loved to have that Hensoldt 3-12x with Gen2 mil-dot and stadia lines. Unfortunately the choice is S&B with Gen2 Mildot or Hensoldt with mil-dot and stadia lines.

As far as RapidZ goes - it's tempting, but since it's not available with every scope and is a bit "crowded", I'm not sure if it will become popular enough. If it's very easy to use on the other hand - there is a significant advantage over mildot then. It would sure be nice if you could "try before you buy", like a test drive with any car.



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2007 at 17:22
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I say buy both - sure as the world you'll find a second rifle and there you go you are already set.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/06/2007 at 17:47
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In that price class of scope I would consider US optic too.

 

Duce

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 00:46
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might take me a while but I will get a US Optics scope just have to save my pennies.  I didnt get any answer back from trying to see about getting a Hensoldt so my take is that they are not available here.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 08:53
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You can get a Hensoldt . But I cant post it here against the rules.Go TO SNIPERS HIDE and pm me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2007 at 17:38
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Hensolt has the better optics, Schmidt the better knobs and illumination but not by much.

Both wonderfull scopes with a slight overall edge to the Hensolt, it comes down to the reticle

you prefer. Both scopes are available in the US and yes there is a waiting period on the Hensolt

I believe to be around 60 days due to special customs papers. The PMII is available right now if

buy a US in stock item(there is many in standard configurations)and 3+ months from S&B on SO,

I do not know right now on hand how long a trip to premier reticles will take for a custom reticle if

desired.



Edited by Trinidad
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2007 at 17:40
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For optics in this class stay tuned to the snipershide for the current availabilities on the Hensolt and configurations on the S&B.

 

Is the Hensolt the same as a VM/V? No, it is built on a different line with stricter tolerances.

 

Is the Hensolt worth its price? I say it overpriced at this time, used ones due come up from

time to time in exellent condition..



Edited by Trinidad
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2007 at 19:55
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Trinidad,

Haven't seen any used Hensoldt available anywhere. It would be a possibly good option assuming the warranty is fully transferable. Thanks for suggestion about snipershide, I check it every once in a while, but amount of irrelevant posting traffic is too high to keep up considering I don't have that much time to read through all posts every day.

As far as Premier Reticle for Mildot Gen2 is concerned - this alone is bigger part of the reason why S&B 3-12x50mm PMII Mil is more expensive than other PMII models. If I'm not mistaken Premier Reticle would charge a typical person close to $800 to have it installed in customer's scope. So, I'd think S&B pays them about $400 for it as well. Gen2 Mildot plus stadia lines would have been awesome combination.

One thing that I personally think most of these high-end scopes should have is integrated Picatinny mounting rail clamp. Only Hensoldt SSG and SSG-P do, and do so in somewhat awkward setup, making the scope much higher than it could have been.

It's even somewhat ironic that USMC first solicited scopes for their Sniper Scout Day Scope and decided to go with S&B and the next step is mounting system. It would have made sense if they would have solicited scope with mounting system right away, I wonder why they didn't.

I noticed though that 6-24 Hensoldt (in at least one version) has 0.05 mil clicks. It actually does make sense considering 0.25mil size of the dot in original Mildot reticle. Makes me wonder if it's possible to make a scope with dual-turret where you do rough adjustment in 0.1 mil clicks first and then fine tune it with few additional 0.05 mil clicks. May be too cumbersome though.






Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2007 at 10:32
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Used Hensoldt: It pays to do the research and be patient on this one. Most Hensolt dealers are located in the UK

and Germany and could be contacted with this proposition. There are much more Hensoldt users in europe than in the states thus the returns come into play. Also check international ebay from time to time and look for a seller with a high positive feedback.

 

SSG-P mount hight: When you place a specialized NV device and high velocity caliber like a .338 LM this makes alot of sense. Everything that whent into the desighn was highly thought out, you can bet on that.

 

Would I use a SSG-P on a .308? No, mine is on a .338 LM and it works great with this set-up.

Different non-mount model is recomended for the .308 unless it is a specialized .308 caliber.

 

.5 cm clicks: Avoid, non needed in my opinion and slows your dialing down. 1 cm accuracy is quite adequate

in mil scopes and makes calculations a snap.



Edited by Trinidad
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2007 at 13:50
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Trinidad,

You missed my point about the mount. SSG-P is high because it was designed for particular purpose and that's obvious. Having integrated mounting clamp with the scope however is a good idea. Properly done, 3-12x56mm FF could have been made with such clamp that as a result would allow you to mount and remount a scope in minutes without any shift in zero (or very minor one). This type of system doesn't have to be as high as SSG-P, the whole idea is to be able to mount/remount scope without the need for bunch of tools and time to mount it without canting reticle in relation to bore. With traditional approach where you have to mount rings on the scope and then mount the scope on the base you always have a possibility of having your reticle canted, because it's a manual error-prone process.

As far as Hensoldt dealers are concerned - I know they're mostly in Europe and that's exactly the problem. I can't wait for the scope forever, it makes little sense. S&B PMII Mil will be here in September. If getting Hensoldt is going to be a 6 months project it may not be worth the wait.




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/10/2007 at 13:56
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Ok, I understand now spreader. Best of luck on your set-up and choice. You can not go wrong in any way with either.
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