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Help with new scope ???

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 12:12
BNagel View Drop Down
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I  recently got a Remington 300 Ultra Mag and am going to reload Swift Scirooco 180 gr and should be close to 3400 - 3450 ft/sec.  I am wanting a scope that has the ballistic plex option.  I was shooting a 300 winmag with a Shephard scope and liked that but I want a bit more magnification, like 4 - 12 or so.  Eye relief is another concern as well.  I am not afraid to shoot this beast but dont want to scope myself either.   

 

 I am thinking of the Leupold VX 3 4.5 - 14 with either the boone and crocket vs the varmint reticles.  I was thinking about a Burris signature with the ballistic plex but I read on here that you need to have it on full zoom for it to function properly.  I have a gift certificate to cablea's for $400 and am going there in 2 months so I could spend another couple hundred too.

 

I just found this site yesterday and I read a bunch and searched alot too.  Alot of good info here and I wanna say that you guys are a good group of peeps! 

 

 

Thanks alot!

Ben

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 13:01
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All second focal plain scopes with trajectory compensating reticle will only function properly at one magnification, typically the maximum magnification.  That includes Burris Ballistic Plex, Leupold B&C, Nikon BDC, etc.

If you want to be able to holdover with the reticle without recalculating anything at any magnification you have to get a scope with the reticle in the first focal plane and a mildot or similar reticle.  I use a IOR 2.5-10x42FFP with MP8 reticle for this reason.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 13:22
BNagel View Drop Down
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The Shephard scope functions at all magnifications right?

 

If that is the case then I may want to look into a mil dot reticle.  What brand would you recommend?  I like the look of the Nikon mil dot.  Is that the same with different magnifications then?

 

 

Does Nikon make a quality scope?

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 13:36
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I am able to find IOR 4 - 14 X50 with the mil dot or the MP* reticles on valdada.com , is this the right site to get one?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 13:42
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Shepherd scopes function at all magnifications (they actually have two reticles one in FFP and one in SFP).  Nikon does make nice scopes.  However, most scopes one the market are SFP (Second Focal Plane).  If you want to be able to range or use holdover marks at all magnifications you need to get a scope that is specifically listed as FFP (reticle in first focal plane).  If memory serves me right all Nikon scopes are SFP (holdover only works on one magnification).

FFP scopes are comparatively rare.  IOR makes one FFP scope: 2.5-10x42 that I use.

Meopta Artemis 2000 scopes are FFP, but they may not have enough eye relief for you.

Beyond that FFP scopes are very expensive german brands like S&B or some of the overpriced Leupold Mark IV tactical scopes.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 13:44
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The right site to get a scope is riflescopes.com (our hosts here).  The IOR 4-14x50 is a SFP scope, so it will not work for what you want to do.  The 2.5-10x42FFP is the one yuo want:

http://www.riflescopes.com/products/IOR2510X42TA/ior_2.5-10x 42_tactical_30mm_rifle_scope.htm

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 13:58
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All balistic compensating reticles  are designed to work at only one power naturally the highest power.  If one was designed to work at all powers it would have to be FFP  first focal plane and the reticle would get smaller and larger as the power changed like a mildot FFP tactical scope. 

 

What the professionals do is dial in the correction (turning tactical knobs) to compensate for trajectory which is actually a lot less complicated than trying to figure out what each mark on the reticle corresponds to at each power. 

 

 1 MOA (minute of angle)     =  4 clicks   = ( 1 inch at 100 yds =  2 in at 200 yds or 3 at 300 or 10 at 1000 etc.) this angle is always the same regardless of what (optical magnification) power you are using.  In the most simple terms you zero at a known distance then go out 100 yds farther and see how many MOA adjustment you need to dial in to get there. Ex:Once you know that with  a .308 a 200 yd zero your 600 yd point of impact is 13.25 MOA up  you just dial in the correction each time you want to shoot 600 yds and return to zero to shoot 200.  You aim where the cross hair is.   Now to translate trajectory data 300RUM 180 Sirocco 3250FPS  100 yds +1.1 in or 4 clicks or 1MOA  Sighted at 200 yds X.  At 300 yds -5.4 in  (3x2=6   at 300 yds 1MOA is 3 inches so each click moves 3/4 of an inch so go up 7 clicks)

At 400 yds it drops 15.8in  (4x4=16  each MOA is 4 inche at 400 yds so go up 4 MOA or 16 clicks. At 500yds it drops 31.5 in 

(6x5 = 30  one MOA at 500 is 5 inches so a quarter minute click is 5/4 or 1.25 inches  per click so you want to go up 6&1/4MOA or 25 clicks.   Check it on the range and make corrections as needed after that its always the same.

 

Take a piece of paper and tape it to the stock 100 -1moa,    200 X,    300 +1 3/4moa,    400 +4moa,    500 +6 1/4moa

 

  Id say if you are going to spend the money on a VXIII go all the way and get the MK4 LR/T you can get more expensive reticles with it but here is the low end and it will do everything you need.

 

LEU54660 Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope               Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Duplex
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
SWFA: $969.95
More Info...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 14:54
BNagel View Drop Down
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I really dont wanna adjust in the field.  Sometimes I already ranged the lay of the land and if an elk comes in at various ranges I dont want the hassle of adjusting the MOA.  I would rather know on my scope what range I need and pull the trigger.

 

Another thing I really dont want is the high tactical turrets.  The leo 4 looks like the turrets are exposed and no caps.

 

The bad thing is, our sporting goods store here is limited so I cannot even put anything in my hands to feel it out.

 

Thanks alot guys!

 

What about the Swarovski A 4 -12 TDS?  Is that a FFR?



Edited by BNagel
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 16:15
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One wonders why a 300 Ultra Mag with a zillion X scope is needed to kill an elk BUT if you insist on hurting yourself and avoiding real hunting, don't use the Scirooco as they come apart pretty easy. Unfailing performance on more Elk than most people will ever see has convinced almost everyone that hunts out our way (WY) that the Barnes X or the newer Triple Shock is the bullet PERIOD. The .30 165 TSX shoots as well as a Sierra target bullet, retains virtually 100% of weight and will shoot thru an Elk from almost any angle leaving TWO holes if followup is required. Even the paid off gun writers are having to admit that there is no rational reason to use any other brand of bullet on big game. Now with the Greenie wackos suing California to ban lead bullets (Condors eat gut piles), bet the farm that everyone will be on the no lead core bandwagon real soon. You'ld really enjoy your hunt a lot more if you used a 35 Whelen with a 2.5X leupold M8 PCH scope and stalked to within 100 yards of Mr Elk. A lot less chance of shooting off legs and other parts as well. (Our wolves love the long range Elk snipers). If one wishes to shoot at extended ranges, why not use paper or gong targets and leave the live game to those who enjoy the hunt not just the markmenship? It's coming down to walking, horses and stalking VS ATVs and sniping. I heard on the news today that 5 years ago in Idaho there were 18,000 ATVs now there are 118,000... wonder where the game went? To the parks where you can't hunt and the wilderness area where ATVs are banned (or if found come to a bad end).We have met the enemy and they are us.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 17:45
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Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

One wonders why a 300 Ultra Mag with a zillion X scope is needed to kill an elk BUT if you insist on hurting yourself and avoiding real hunting, don't use the Scirooco as they come apart pretty easy. Unfailing performance on more Elk than most people will ever see has convinced almost everyone that hunts out our way (WY) that the Barnes X or the newer Triple Shock is the bullet PERIOD. The .30 165 TSX shoots as well as a Sierra target bullet, retains virtually 100% of weight and will shoot thru an Elk from almost any angle leaving TWO holes if followup is required. Even the paid off gun writers are having to admit that there is no rational reason to use any other brand of bullet on big game. Now with the Greenie wackos suing California to ban lead bullets (Condors eat gut piles), bet the farm that everyone will be on the no lead core bandwagon real soon. You'ld really enjoy your hunt a lot more if you used a 35 Whelen with a 2.5X leupold M8 PCH scope and stalked to within 100 yards of Mr Elk. A lot less chance of shooting off legs and other parts as well. (Our wolves love the long range Elk snipers). If one wishes to shoot at extended ranges, why not use paper or gong targets and leave the live game to those who enjoy the hunt not just the markmenship? It's coming down to walking, horses and stalking VS ATVs and sniping. I heard on the news today that 5 years ago in Idaho there were 18,000 ATVs now there are 118,000... wonder where the game went? To the parks where you can't hunt and the wilderness area where ATVs are banned (or if found come to a bad end).We have met the enemy and they are us.

 

 

I find it really interesting that you already know me! 

 

I am an avid outdoorsman and take pride in my hunting skills, but if you feel you must bash me then go right ahead if it makes you feel like a grown man.  That is not my cup of tea to start off bashing anyone that enjoys the sport of hunting.  I came to this site for some help.  I am shocked that someone would treat another like what you have just done to me.  Maybe you need to take a good look in the mirror!

 

Thanks alot for the positive help that I have received already for everyone else.



Edited by BNagel
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 18:27
tahqua View Drop Down
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 I think in the case of your boomer the added eye relief from the VX-III is a wise choice.  For it's magnification it is relatively compact compared to other brands. Is that an M700 you have and are you looking at the 30mm tube on the VX-III?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 18:57
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Originally posted by BNagel BNagel wrote:

Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

One wonders why a 300 Ultra Mag with a zillion X scope is needed to kill an elk BUT if you insist on hurting yourself and avoiding real hunting, don't use the Scirooco as they come apart pretty easy. Unfailing performance on more Elk than most people will ever see has convinced almost everyone that hunts out our way (WY) that the Barnes X or the newer Triple Shock is the bullet PERIOD. The .30 165 TSX shoots as well as a Sierra target bullet, retains virtually 100% of weight and will shoot thru an Elk from almost any angle leaving TWO holes if followup is required. Even the paid off gun writers are having to admit that there is no rational reason to use any other brand of bullet on big game. Now with the Greenie wackos suing California to ban lead bullets (Condors eat gut piles), bet the farm that everyone will be on the no lead core bandwagon real soon. You'ld really enjoy your hunt a lot more if you used a 35 Whelen with a 2.5X leupold M8 PCH scope and stalked to within 100 yards of Mr Elk. A lot less chance of shooting off legs and other parts as well. (Our wolves love the long range Elk snipers). If one wishes to shoot at extended ranges, why not use paper or gong targets and leave the live game to those who enjoy the hunt not just the markmenship? It's coming down to walking, horses and stalking VS ATVs and sniping. I heard on the news today that 5 years ago in Idaho there were 18,000 ATVs now there are 118,000... wonder where the game went? To the parks where you can't hunt and the wilderness area where ATVs are banned (or if found come to a bad end).We have met the enemy and they are us.

 

 

I find it really interesting that you already know me! 

 

I am an avid outdoorsman and take pride in my hunting skills, but if you feel you must bash me then go right ahead if it makes you feel like a grown man.  That is not my cup of tea to start off bashing anyone that enjoys the sport of hunting.  I came to this site for some help.  I am shocked that someone would treat another like what you have just done to me.  Maybe you need to take a good look in the mirror!

 

Thanks alot for the positive help that I have received already for everyone else.



BNagel, do not judge the rest of us by what rootmanslim posts.  Most of us tend to ignore him anyway.  It's not that his opinons are always wrong (well, I disagree with most of his opinons, but I am not a big fan of supermagnums either).  It's mostly that he does not seem to understand the difference between advising and preaching, and I can think of very few people who find "the church of rootmanslim" in any way appealing.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 19:08
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The Barnes bullets indeed are good to go.

IF....you can get them to shoot.

I had good luck shooting them out of a .300 Win Mag.

All the "X" bullets shot well for me.

But, for every guy that can get them to shoot, theres a couple more that can't. 

They are finicky.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 19:40
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Rootmanslim tends to preach alot as previously said.  And I disagree with Koshkin.  There is nothing wrong with a magnum.  In all reality, mangnum is just a name applied to a shell that is a selling point to say that it is powerful and that is all.  After all, Wby. who pioneered fast moving, hard hitting bullets, could have just named his calibers a whatever Wby. and left off the magnum part.  Where I live in NC, stalking game is essentially out of the question.  Most of the surrounding counties require you to be so many feet above the ground to shoot deer.  So, unless you have a rolling deer stand, that is out of the question.  The county I reside, you cannot even set up a deer stand in the back of your pick up truck.  So as rootmanslim would say, I am a sniper hunter.  Well so be it, but it is still hunting and as you said, I take pride in how I do it.  As for your choice of bullets, many people shoot those with good things to say.  I like Nosler BTs, others like the partitions.  I also like the plain old Remingtion Core Lokt.  I shoot many Wby. mags as well as other mags and many non-mag calibers and like them all.  All have there pluses and minuses.  I am sorry rootmanslim came on so strong.

I think any FFP scope from a good company should suit your needs and with the 400 dollar gift certificate, buying at Cabelas makes perfect sense.  Just verify your scope markings at the range, so they are reproducible in the field and you will be set.  Or buy from SWFA and use the gift certificate for a Leupold rangefinder which has a built in BDC that can be set for MOA, inches of hold over or for the Leupold BDC reticles.  Even if you do not use this feature, it is a great rangefinder and in conjunction with a ballistics program, such as Exbal, which can be loaded on a PDA, or PC Phone, that can be carried into the field, you cannot go wrong.  I use this for long range hunting, 500 yards plus.  I hope this helps and good hunting.



Edited by Dolphin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 20:39
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Dolphin, it is perfectly fine to disagree.  I do not do the type of shooting you do and I do not appreciate cartridges that kick the beejesus out of me.   The long range shooting that I do is done on the range and I do not see a compelling reason to use anything particularly hot.  I've shot my 280Rem out to 700 yards in reasonable comfort and felt no need for anything faster.

Now, on Barnes X-bullets.  They are good bullet and the new ones with grooves are less finicky than the old X bullets.  However, I find the thought that Barnes Triple Shocks supercede everything else out there absolutely preposterous.  For one thing, I am not sure that much penetration is all that wonderful on smaller game.  I can see it as a good thing on large and tough game like elk or moose, but on whitetail?  Now, I am certainly not an authority on this, but most people I know prefer something that expands a bit for this.  Personally, I found that 150gr Partitions and 140gr TBCs shoot great out of my 280 and I use those, but Speer Grand Slams and Hot-Cor also shoot well, in my experience as do Nosler Ballistic Tips.

ILya
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You don't need a Barnes TSX to kill an elk any more than you need a $1500 scope on your rifle.  If you're not taking marginal shots, as rootmanslim wisely recommends and so do I, any decent bullet will do.  And if you really stalk to within 100yds, just take your 30-30 with open sights, make a good shot, and he's not going anywhere. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2007 at 21:34
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Rootmanslim certainly preaches and can get under your skin. Don't worry about it and stick around.
As far as Barnes bullets, use what works. When using smaller calibers on very large game it pays to use premium bullets that hold together and penetrate. Try several and see what shoots good out of your gun, then go with what you are comfortable with. I don't have any of the new magnums that are out now, but my 7mm RM was a new cartridge 45 years ago as was my .375H&H almost 90 years ago. They both kick and they both work. I don't care what I'm hunting on this continent, a Cor-Lokt is going to work on elk from the .375. On the other hand, I use Trophy Bonded with the 7 mag on bigger animals because they hold up.
BNagel, you've made your choice on caliber. I hope you can choose a scope with the help of the group on this site. That 4.5-14 is a fine call.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2007 at 07:55
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LEU58860 Leupold 3.5-10x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope Leupold 3.5-10x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • 1st Focal Plane Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
  • M3 Target Knobs
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
SWFA: $1,219.95
There you go short M3 knobs  with screw on covers.  Just set it on 3 for 300yds set it on 6 for 600 yds should come with the cam for 300 WM and 300RUM should be obtainable from the custom shop just tell them your balistics.  This way you can use the FFP mil dots for hold over points and the dots will always represent the same distance regardless of power or you can choose to dial in the correction without worrying about getting lost in the dial.

Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd
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Originally posted by mwyates mwyates wrote:

You don't need a Barnes TSX to kill an elk any more than you need a $1500 scope on your rifle.  If you're not taking marginal shots, as rootmanslim wisely recommends and so do I, any decent bullet will do.  And if you really stalk to within 100yds, just take your 30-30 with open sights, make a good shot, and he's not going anywhere. 

 

i absolutly agree! when i was living in wyoming (21 yrs) i used a plain old sierra 150 gr spitzer in my 30-06 and i never ever had any elk or deer get away, and as far as the 30-30 goes until i went off and got married and all that crap my dad killed more elk than our entire party combined with his 336c  and we all used 3x9 scopes i dont care how much your bullets your gun your scope etc cost if you cant place a shot correctly none of that matters!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2007 at 08:38
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the barnes TSX bullets are excellent - but not all guns will like them -

 

each gun, not model, has it's favorite bullet - you just have to find it.

 

don't pay any mind to over-opinionated folks like rootmanslim -

this site is a great resource of info for pros and novices alike. 

 

welcome to the OT.

 

J

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Guys I only meant 1 negative remark towards root.......   I have really appreciated ALL the help i had already received and I greatly appreciate the continued help. 

 

I agree about all guns not liking all bullets.  I will shoot the sciroccos and see.  If they arent the bullet then another one will be the replacement.  I do take hunting serious and I believe in 1 shot 1 kill.  If I see a big bull/deer/whatever and the closest I can get is 500 yds, then I want my gun to perform like I want it too and have confidence that the 1 shot should have brought him down.

 

Leupold 3.5-10x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope does look like a nice scope but may be too much out of my price range.  I will continue to research that scope.  Does look good.  I could probably go max to $700.

 

Guys thanks alot for encouraging me to continue to come here.  As of last night after my reply, I thought that was my last time to post here.  It is nice to see there are good people on here! 

 

Keep the scope ideas coming!

 

Ben

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2007 at 09:21
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check out meopta meostar lines - they are tremendous for the money.

 

J

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2007 at 09:23
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Not much eye relief though.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2007 at 09:25
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eye relief with that cannon is a major factor to think about when looking at scopes!!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2007 at 09:25
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Once again we are treated to the "Barnes are finicky" line. Why do we hear it? Because it has been written so often by so many experts that it is accepted without question. Heaven forbid that we should actually test the TSX and see how it works. I have shot them in 22-06, 25-06, 270 WCF, 308 W, 30-06, 300 WM, 300 H&H, 375 H&H, 400 Whelen and 400 H&H. In NO case have I had any problem developing a load that was sub MOA (three shots) from an ordinary rifle that equaled or exceeded factory ammo.The fact that Federal premium ammo is now available with them is a rather telling statement.(My friends out of the box 77 270 with a 4X scope will put 5 in 3/4" @ 100 with the federal ammo). What I don't get is why anyone who would spend 1000s on a rifle & scope, perhaps more 10s of thousands on other gear and guides, then considers it a point of pride to use cheap bullets? As to Ben shooting an Elk at 500 yards... well anyone who would endorse that kind of irresponsible activity is not an ethical hunter, if that is preaching so be it. Anyone who says you can't get closer than 500 yards to an Elk has never learned to hunt, and hunting not sniping is the point of being in the field.
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