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Help W / Low light scope selection

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 02:48
canine View Drop Down
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Hi Guys,

I am in the market for a good low light scope.  At this point in my research I have found the Leupold VX-III 4.5-14X50 with the illuminated german #4 dot reticle and the Meopta Meostar R1 with the same type of Illuminated dot reticle.  Is anyone familiar with these scopes / reticles.  I will mainly be utilizing them for hunting, but I will also be doing some long range target shooting. (7mm Rem Mag)

Am I on the right track or do you guys have any other sugestions?

Thanks,

Brad

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 02:56
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By the way, i believe both of these scopes range somewhere around 850ish.  that is the price range that I would like to stay In.  Thanks again
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 05:26
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it's kinda hard to have your cake and eat it too.  if you are hunting low light,  then the starting 4.5 power is really a little steep,  but you still want the long range going up to 14.  i have a vx3 3.5-10x50 illuminated duplex and really like it.  i think you will really like it as well and it's a toss up on which power to go with.  i have no experience with the meopta and can't form an opinion on it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 08:22
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I guess i need to know what is low light. To a guy in Alaska in the Alders it's one thing, to me in NW WY it's far different.
It also makes a huge difference if you are sniper hunting vs jump shooting. I have seen lots of elk missed by guys trying to sneak thru the black timber with a monte carlo monster and a 6-18x50 scope in conditions where a 12 ga semi auto with a 1X scope and brenekke slugs would have been far superior. As Fynn said:, if big game is too far away to be shot with a 3X scope, it's too far away to be shot."
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 09:20
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Most of my hunting is on stand in big farm fields for whitetails in the mid-atlantic region.  By low light I mean up to 1/2 hour after sunset on a cloudy day.  I can't agree with the 3X scope or thier to far comment.  I like to get up close and personal with my optics, hence the higher power. Plus, Like I said, I also want to be able to do some long range target stuff for fun.  I am going to have a custom Bullet Drop compensator made for the scope so I do not want a ballistic reticle and I really liked the illuminated dot with the heavy posts.  Just not sure which one has the best optics.

 

P.S.  I also looked at the IOR Valdada 4-14.  Don't know anything about this company.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 10:01
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Originally posted by canine canine wrote:

Most of my hunting is on stand in big farm fields for whitetails in the mid-atlantic region.  By low light I mean up to 1/2 hour after sunset on a cloudy day.  I can't agree with the 3X scope or thier to far comment.  I like to get up close and personal with my optics, hence the higher power. Plus, Like I said, I also want to be able to do some long range target stuff for fun.  I am going to have a custom Bullet Drop compensator made for the scope so I do not want a ballistic reticle and I really liked the illuminated dot with the heavy posts.  Just not sure which one has the best optics.

 

P.S.  I also looked at the IOR Valdada 4-14.  Don't know anything about this company.

 

 

I think that some more realistic goals are in order.

 

1) If you want low light performace, then you have to accept the fact that your eye will be the limiting  factor.  This means that 7x or 8x is the max on night time usage. Your eye pupil will only expand so much, as you age, things do not get any better. That means you take the max that your eye pupil can open (7mm) and then divide your objective lens for the working magnification.  Most low light scopes are 50mm or 56mm max objective lens divide those numbers by 7 and you get 7x and 8x  respectively.

 

 The Europeans and many American varmit hunters have hunted by the light of the moon for years.  They do not use the illuminated reticle.  It is nice, but not needed.  When hunting under these conditions you have additional moral, ethical, and legal responceablity; namely target identification and back stop identification.  You need a very clear scope not one  with a lot of magification. 

 

2) The Leupold from its own cataloge has a 92 percent light transmission rate.  The European stuff is 94 to 96 percent light transmission.  That number is the through rate for light.  Or the Leupold does not allow  2 to 4 percent as much light to your eye.  

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 10:11
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Let me continue here.

 

3) Custom Bullet drop compensator?  How much do you think that is going to cost? What do you think the lead time will be?  Vendor?  Why re-invent the wheel?  Why not just put that money into the scope in the first place? 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 13:08
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So you are not hunting you are sniping. Fynn was a hunter (mostly Africa) whereas sitting in a blind waiting for a deer to come to feed is sniping. Nothing wrong with it but don't confuse stalking to within 50 yards of a smart buck with potting him at 400 yards with some monster magnum and a high powered scope. To shoot within any responsible distance you don't need a bullet drop compensator, just a good rangefinder and a table of drop taped to your stock. In my youth I shot a lot of "chucks" out to 400 yards with a 25-06 and a 6-24 B&L.It wasn't rocket science, if they were close, hold on the chest, if farther hold on the eye, if a long way hold a bit above them. Deer are a lot bigger and a center chest hold will kill as far as need be IF you follow the old O'Connor rule of sighting in 3" high @ 100 yards.
Don't let technology spoil the hunting experience and before you decide Fynn's 3X rule was wrong, try a good 3X scope on a deer sized paper target at 300 yards, it might surprise you.Good hunting!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 13:17
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LEU58860 Leupold 3.5-10x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope Leupold 3.5-10x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • 1st Focal Plane Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
  • M3 Target Knobs
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
SWFA: $1,219.95
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LEU51850 Leupold 3.5-10x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope Leupold 3.5-10x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
  • Long Range
  • M3 Target Knobs
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
SWFA: $1,019.95

More Info... Buy Now

 

 

 

LEU47638 Leupold 10x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope Leupold 10x40 Mark 4 LR/T 30mm Riflescope
  • Matte
  • Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • Side Focus
  • M3 Target Knobs
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
SWFA: $1,359.95
More Info... Buy Now

 

POOF - instant scope with bullet drop compensator  =  M3 cams should be available if not included for .223  .308 30-06 and 300 WM custom shop can make other cams just provide them your balistic data.

For a brighter view use the variable and dial it down to about 6x as it gets dark.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 13:29
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I would NOT go for a leuopld for low light hunting, NEVER.

 

I would go for a good german scope (or at least germanspeking).

Zeiss Diavari-Z 3-12x56 can be had for less money than you just said secondhanded and there is wonderfull bulletdropcompensators to them originally.

 

Personally I prefer the reticle no11 but the no:1 or in worst case no4 do the job as well.

However there is no question about that you will be able to take much more lightwise difficult shots with a Zeiss with unilluminated no11 reticle than with a leupold with illuminated reticle.

 

If  you want new, i suppose that the 6,5-20X Zeiss concuest could be something for you?

 

But most important of all, when buying on a budget you can't expect to get everything and I would therefor like to recomend you to drop the illuminated reticle.

 

Regards Technika

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 13:39
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422152M Bushnell 2.5-10x50 Elite 4200 30mm Rifle Scope Bushnell 2.5-10x50 Elite 4200 30mm Rifle Scope
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422106M Bushnell 2.5-10x50 Elite 4200 Rifle Scope Bushnell 2.5-10x50 Elite 4200 Rifle Scope
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Save your money and try one of these.  Optically, in my opinion they are as good as the Meopta scopes, the objectives should provide plenty of light gathering for your purposes and if you want an IR of some type, these should suit you fine.  The money you save can be put into ammo or buy a Leupold laser range finder with the BDC feature so hold overs can be more accurate for your type of hunting, which is the type of deer hunting I do.  I own one and it is invaluable.  Howverer, what rootmanslim says is correct.  But, for longer shots, past 500 yards, which long distance hunters, of which there are some of us, the devices come in handy.

 

 

 

 

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 13:43
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technika, sharp looking rig, what is it? BTW, Happy New Year
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 15:59
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exellent advise and pic technika.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 16:20
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Hi

 

That was the look of yesterday, that scope is now on my wifes .308.

While mine have this look........

My gun by the way is a 6,5x55 Ackley imp.

Here is the full rifle

http://www.technika.nu/modules/tinycontent0/index.php?id=95

 

Regards Technika

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 16:24
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Yes I have seen both of these fine scope pics presented by you. Exellent stuff technika.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 21:03
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Both Meopta and IOR Valdada have better glass than Leupold.  If you want the bset glass for the money leupold is not the best way to go.  Persoanlly, I think IOR 30mm scopes have slightly better glass than Meopta with their 30mm scopes.  IOR 35mm scopes are better still, but more expensive.

As for Zeiss scopes while they are very good, coating and glass change somewhat, so while today's Zeiss is certainly better optically than today's Meopta and IOR, yesterday's Zeiss is not necessarily better than today's Meopta and IOR.

As for lighted reticle, I am not a big fan of those, but they can be useful.  For your need a thick #1 or #4 reticle will work very well.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/01/2007 at 23:30
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I have borrowed a IOR 2,5-10X56 for test.

Tried yesterday at 18 o clock, full moon behind thick clouds. But fairly dark.

I had no problems to take a shot with my non illuminated SuB 3-12x42 (reticle german no:1)

I have shot with the IOR so far but I tried the night hunting capabilitys with it so far and the restult is.

 

"Its the absolutetly worst unusuable illumination I so far have tried"

 

I can see through the scope when the illumination is turned off, but as soon as I turn it on I can't see anything at all more than green light.

 

Really very very worthless.

 

Regards Technika

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/02/2007 at 00:25
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Too many scopes out there have too bright of an illuminated reticle.  IOR has had that problem for quite a while also.  Even my fairly new 2-12x32 has a reticle a bit too bright for my tastes.  However, it is not as bright as it used to be in earlier scopes and it is quite useable.  Personally I prefer very faint illumination, and I am told that future IOR scopes will have less bright of a reticle.  I'll report on it when i get my hands on one.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/02/2007 at 08:33
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i had a bushnell elite 4200 w/ an illuminated #4 and it was very effective, but not necessary.

 

my 2 cents..........

 

go IOR valdata #4 reticle - or Meostar by Meopta #4 reticle - awesome for lowlight and the reticle is all you need

 

get at least 50mm objective, but don't go too high on the magnification - 2.5 or 3 on the low power is very effective in the lowlight.

 

i have a 56mm meostar and am very happy w/ the glass, performance.

 

good luck and let us know what you decide.

 

J

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/02/2007 at 15:38
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

Too many scopes out there have too bright of an illuminated reticle.  IOR has had that problem for quite a while also.  Even my fairly new 2-12x32 has a reticle a bit too bright for my tastes.  However, it is not as bright as it used to be in earlier scopes and it is quite useable.  Personally I prefer very faint illumination, and I am told that future IOR scopes will have less bright of a reticle.  I'll report on it when i get my hands on one.

ILya

 

Does the IOR have a rheostat for adjusting the brightness of illumination?  I'm currently considering a Kahles CSX, which, like the Zeiss, Nighforce, and other illuminated reticle scopes I'm aware of, has an adjustment for brightness from very bright to almost nonexistant illumination.  I too prefer dim illumination.  On a very dim setting, I find an illuminated reticle to be very helpful in low light or nighttime predator hunting.  If it's too bright, it sorta night blinds you and washes out the rest of the target image.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/02/2007 at 15:50
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Yes, IOR does have a rheostat with seven ( I think) illumination levels, but the lowest setting is still brighter than I like.  In all fairness almost all illuminated reticle scopes this side of S&B are brighter than I like.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/02/2007 at 16:31
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O.K., I do see preset illumination levels as a potential problem.  Nighforce, for example has a continuous rheostat, where the brightness level is infinitely adjustable all the way down to almost completely off.  Have you tried the new Kahles CSX scopes?  Despite the rather hefty price tag, I'm intrigued by these.  The product description seems to indicate that perhaps it has an infinitely adjustable rheostat as well, but I'm not sure of that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/02/2007 at 16:37
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I have not used new Kahles CSX.  I very seldom use illumination, so it is not a major concern for me anyway.  Nightforce scopes are very good, but I generally prefer IOR glass.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/02/2007 at 16:54
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I like what I hear about IOR's optics (I hear they use Schott glass with Zeiss T coatings), I like the MP8 reticle for a varmint scope, and their prices for what you get are very intriguing.  For a general hunting scope, I may someday consider an IOR.  For a varmint scope, however, all the models I'd be interested in have the d@mn 35mm tube dia.  I realize that SWFA sells them with rings included, but I'd want to use a different style of rings.  Other than increased W/E adjustment range, what's the advantage of 35mm, and why did they decide to adopt this unorthodox tube dia?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/02/2007 at 17:04
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There is nothing magical about Schott glass.  A bunch of companies use it.  It is simply quality bulk glass.  What the company makes of it is what matters.  As for coatings, it is a common myth that IOR uses Zeiss coatings.  IOR is not affiliated with Zeiss in any way.  They have their own coatings that are actually very good.  Current IOR coatings are called MC7.  In the past they used simpler coatings called T3.

35mm allows for larger internal lenses which helps with system design and resolution.  Also, 35mm IOR have a 6x erector system which benefits from the extra real estate.  Strength is another benefit: thicker tube scopes are typically a bit stronger.  A few manufacturers are going toward thicker tubes, I think.  S&B has 34mm scopes.  US Optics also offers larger tubes.

ILya
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