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Help me justify buying a new scope!!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 17:16
CodyBrown View Drop Down
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So I currently have a Leupold 6.5-20x40 LR scope with a fine duplex on a 22-250. Someone offered me a 8.5-25x50 LR with the varmint hunters recticle for a hell of a deal. I really wanted the varmint hunters recticle when I bought the original scope, but the store was sold out, and I needed the scope for a last minute hunt. The 8.5-25 is a little overkill in my opinion, but I don't have to use the higher power if I don't need it. Most the time it stays at 10-12x as is, but it would be nice to be able to crank it up for long range paper shooting if I wanted to, and I would really like to have the varmint hunters recticle. I looked it up, and it retails at about $1100, and the guy wants $500 for it, and it could pass as new. It was mounted on a safe queen, and supposedly he never even shot with it. So what say you? I'm pretty sure my decision is already made, but I need a little push over the edge. BTW I paid $580 for my current 6.5-20....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 19:16
Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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the varmit reticle (usable) will not be calibrated correctly at any lower power, if you attempt to use it's hold over reticle around 10-12x your shots will be around 10 moa high.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 19:52
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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I don't think that's the push he was looking for Dale.......however, as usual, you are absolutely correct. With the mag. turned down a second focal plane reticle will not be calibrated for your bullet drop. May save him from making a mistake. Good to know these things up front.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 20:00
CodyBrown View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

the varmit reticle (usable) will not be calibrated correctly at any lower power, if you attempt to use it's hold over reticle around 10-12x your shots will be around 10 moa high.  


Can you clarify that a little for me?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 20:27
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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The reticle in that scope is in the second image plane. What this means is that as you turn up the magnification ring, the target that you are trying to shoot will be magnified, but the reticle will stay the same size. The reticle is not magnified by the scope, and will always remain the same size. If one of the marks appears to subtend 3 moa down from the main crosshairs at 20x, if you dial back to 10x and aim with the same mark you will be holding over 6 moa instead. If you hold your crosshair on a target, and look how far down it is to the first mark down, and turn up the magnification, the marks will appear to move closer together on the target. I hope some of this makes sense. It's hard to explain without seeing it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 20:34
CodyBrown View Drop Down
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So how is that supposed to be an improvement on a scope recticle? There must be a trick to it, or Leupold wouldn't have made it. Kinda defeats the purpose of using holdover marks doesn't it?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 20:38
trigger29 View Drop Down
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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You just have to know what power to have the scope on to make the marks hit at the yardage you want to, or know where the marks will hit at the magnification you want to run the scope at. It's not a perfect system, but I've used my Rapid-Z reticle to make some shots that I doubt I'd have made without some kind of reference. No matter what you do, there is no magical long range optic that makes long range shooting a breeze. You still have to learn the system.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 21:03
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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There is a solution but first focal plane scopes are usually expensive.   With FFP the reticle appear to change size as you change the magnification.    The mil dots or mil marks can be used for hold over at any power  (same same). 

Leupold 8.5-25x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope TMR Leupold 8.5-25x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - LEU63055
  • Matte
  • Tactical Milling Reticle
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • First Focal Plane Reticle
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
$1,849.95 

Leupold 6.5-20x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope TMR Leupold 6.5-20x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - LEU64665
  • Matte
  • Tactical Milling Reticle
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • First Focal Plane Reticle
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
$1,699.95 
Add Leupold 6.5-20x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope to Cart
Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope TMR Leupold 4.5-14x50 Mark 4 ER/T 30mm Riflescope
Stock # - LEU65495
  • Matte
  • Tactical Milling Reticle
  • 30mm
  • Long Range
  • Side Focus
  • M1 Target Knobs
  • First Focal Plane Reticle
  • Free Leupold Flip-Open Lens Covers
$1,599.95 
SWFA SS 3-9x42 Tactical Riflescope Mil-Dot SWFA SS 3-9x42 Tactical Riflescope
Stock # - SS39X42
  • Matte
  • First Focal Plane Mil-Dot
  • 30mm
  • OK for .50 cal
  • 0.1 MRAD
$599.95 
Add SWFA SS 3-9x42 Tactical Riflescope to Cart
Premier Heritage 5-25x56 Tactical 34mm Riflescope Illuminated Gen II XR Premier Heritage 5-25x56 Tactical 34mm Riflescope
Stock # - PRH09009
  • Matte
  • First Focal Plane Illuminated Gen II XR
  • 34mm
  • Double-Turn 0.1 MRad (27 mrad of Elevation travel)
  • Counter-Clockwise
  • Free Flip Open Lens Caps w/ Purchase
$2,599.00 
Add Premier Heritage 5-25x56 Tactical 34mm Riflescope to Cart


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - November/28/2009 at 21:11
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 21:09
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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The reason people wind up not entirely happy with high power balistic reticles is that they dial the power down to stalk game  or when the sun goes down to brighten up the scope and they wind up shooting over the game because the center X is all that holds true at lower than max magnification.   With tactical knobs you dial in correction and its good at any power.  Leupold CDS  Custom dial system scopes are a  hunting version with knobs custom engraved to match the rifle caliber and ammo you use.  Put it on 2 for 200 yds  or put it on 4 for 400 yds hold dead on and you are on target.
Leupold 4.5-14x50 VX-3L Riflescope Duplex Leupold 4.5-14x50 VX-3L Riflescope
Stock # - LEU59275
  • Matte
  • Duplex
  • 1"
  • Custom Dial System
  • Xtended Twilight Lens System
$839.95 
Add Leupold 4.5-14x50 VX-3L Riflescope to Cart 


Edited by Urimaginaryfrnd - November/28/2009 at 21:12
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/28/2009 at 22:16
CodyBrown View Drop Down
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So if I'm holding my crosshair at one notch below center at 100 yards at 10x, the change would become 2 times greater at 20x? Is that kinda how it works? I've only used standard rifle scopes before, so the whole ballistic notching is a new concept to me. Basically I would need to shoot the rifle at different ranges at different magnifications to learn the charistics of the scope and become familiar with it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 21:32
CodyBrown View Drop Down
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So does the center of the recticle stay correct at all magnifications at all ranges with second focal plane scopes?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 21:47
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X = 180 Y = 90 (X+Pyro)+(Y-Pyro) = ?

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The center of the reticle shouldn't move. If you dialed back the magnification for shorter shots, and only used the main crosshair, you would be fine. Just don't expect the holdover marks to be accurate at more than one power.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/29/2009 at 21:58
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Yes. At least on most scopes, anyway! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2009 at 09:32
CodyBrown View Drop Down
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Ok, so technically all that I would be able to use reliably at all powers would be the normal crosshair and the windage marks then.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2009 at 17:41
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Windage marks are going to change with magnification also in a SFP scope. Basically, only the center cross hair stays the same. In a first focal plane scope all reticle marks "move" with magnification, thus allowing the hold-offs to stay the same.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/30/2009 at 20:53
CodyBrown View Drop Down
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Well damn.....the only advantage I see is that it would give me 5x more magnification and a 10mm larger objective then, unless I just left it on one power setting......I"m kinda glad I got the fine duplex on my 6.5-20
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/01/2009 at 10:51
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Cody, that's a good deal on the scope, and I'd recommend you buy it if the magnification range would be useful for your application.  The V.H. reticle is still a good, simple reticle, despite the limitations of it being in the second focal plane.  Just learn where your point of impact is at a couple different powers and turn the magnification to those powers when using the reticle for drop and windage compensation.  As Trigger stated, no reticle system is perfect, and no reticle will be perfectly calibrated to your rifle and load anyway, regardless of whether it's in first or second focal plane.  First focal scopes just eliminate magnification setting as a consideration when ranging or using holdover.  The V.H. reticle is very useful for long range varmint sniping once you learn how to use it, which you'd have to do with any ballistic multi-point reticle anyway.  There is no easy, magic reticle that makes long range shooting a breeze without involving a lot of practice.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2009 at 11:51
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Well I've thought it over, and I'm going to buy the scope. I'll take the 6.5-20 off and mount it on the new 30-06 I'm getting I think. Thank you all for your help. I know it will take a little getting used to and practice, but it seems like a good scope once you're familiar with it. I will just use the center crosshair until I'm comfortable using the windage and elevation markings.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2009 at 19:45
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There you go, you knew you were going to buy it anyway.  Ted, you my brother are a smooth takin' devil!!!  Roll on Floor Laughing
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2009 at 20:54
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Cody, that's a good deal on the scope, and I'd recommend you buy it if the magnification range would be useful for your application.  The V.H. reticle is still a good, simple reticle, despite the limitations of it being in the second focal plane.  Just learn where your point of impact is at a couple different powers and turn the magnification to those powers when using the reticle for drop and windage compensation.  As Trigger stated, no reticle system is perfect, and no reticle will be perfectly calibrated to your rifle and load anyway, regardless of whether it's in first or second focal plane.  First focal scopes just eliminate magnification setting as a consideration when ranging or using holdover.  The V.H. reticle is very useful for long range varmint sniping once you learn how to use it, which you'd have to do with any ballistic multi-point reticle anyway.  There is no easy, magic reticle that makes long range shooting a breeze without involving a lot of practice.
You OBVIOUSLY forgot about Huskemaw and CounterSniper...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2009 at 23:10
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Originally posted by trigger29 trigger29 wrote:

You just have to know what power to have the scope on to make the marks hit at the yardage you want to, or know where the marks will hit at the magnification you want to run the scope at. It's not a perfect system, but I've used my Rapid-Z reticle to make some shots that I doubt I'd have made without some kind of reference. No matter what you do, there is no magical long range optic that makes long range shooting a breeze. You still have to learn the system.

 I thought the whole purpose of FFP was that moa and poi did not change from 4-16 or whatever. That you could still range with your mill dots at any power and still be on the money......anyone care to elaborate.....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/02/2009 at 23:40
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Originally posted by 0311GRUNT 0311GRUNT wrote:

  I thought the whole purpose of FFP was that moa and poi did not change from 4-16 or whatever. That you could still range with your mill dots at any power and still be on the money......anyone care to elaborate.....


You are correct when you are talking about a First focal plane, but the scope they are talking about is a second focal plane.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/03/2009 at 07:01
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Cody, coming in a bit late on this thread. I have the very scope you want to buy. Just let me know who I need to convince, you, the wife or girlfriend (or all three) and I would be happy to oblige.
All the info given by the able bodies are 100% coorect.
 
I have mine mounted on a 308 Win pushing a 155gr at 2930 ft per second. On 20X and zeroed at 100yds I am spot on 2nd reticle 200yds, 3rd at 300yds. The inbetween gives me the 250 and 350 hits.
It is just a case of going out there, putting a few bullets on paper from the different distances and then cranking the scope about to see which intersection meets where.
 
Make a cheat sheet, practice a lot and you are good to go.
 
It can also be used to judge the distance if you have the dimensions of the target.
 
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