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Hard Data Vs. Ballistic's Chart

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/26/2012 at 23:39
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What is the deal with "modern day shooters" and their
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 12:14
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not sure what your getting at? 
felt recoil has nothing to do with differences in bdc and dialing in
accuracy of any measuring system depends on how many significant figures before or after the system and not inherent in the system itself. moa is not more accurate than mil per se only to the significant figures of the calculation.
the only thing I can conclude from your post -  is you haven't used bdc very much

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 14:04
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whats your point? are you refering to bdc charts as in software programs to aid in drop estimation? if so, yeah, it's better to have hard data than to rely strictly on software, but having both doesn't hurt. SOCOM has been rockin the KAC software for a while. but they also have hard data, so the software just aids in environmental adjustment.

but i'm still not sure what your point is, in the comparison of the felt and free recoil. when you squeeze the trigger, you feel the recoil.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 14:37
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Out of all that there is only one thing I can agree with: using a BDC reticle is problematic. (I'm not saying that they can't work for some shooters).

Otherwise, the OP reads like someone drank a lot of whiskey, copied a bunch of stuff off the Internet, posted it, then drank some more, quoted himself and reposted it. Well, at least you have a lot of bottles to shoot at to acquire your "hard" data.

Of course there are some nuggets of truth buried in there. Of course you should verify your drops by actually shooting. And it may be that the way you use the rifle, particularly at longer distances may affect your point of impact. But let's get it straight about ballistics calculators. They are meant to measure external ballistics and are pretty good at it, if the right inputs are entered.

Also, there is no need to shoot every 25 yards or meters to verify drops. 100 yard/meter increments will do.

Finally, while 1/4 MOA clicks (.26" @ 100 yards) are a bit finer than 1/10 mil clicks (.36" @ 100 yards) who can shoot within 1/10th of an inch? Mils are just fine and are not too coarse. And forget about this nonsense that you should have a scope with a mil reticle and MOA turrets. That is just carrying on a tradition of mathematical misery. Either go mil/mil or MOA/MOA.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 14:57
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It's a wordy post, I'll have some whiskey in a bit and try to read it, will let you know if it makes sense to a slightly inebriated Coolaid.

I do agree BDC reticles are not an "out of the box" solution, everything should be verified on the range with THE gun, THE ammo, THE shooter, THE range, and THE shooting conditions.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 17:35
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I ca't make much sense of that post, but what little I can figure out I mostly disagree with.

I do not like BDC reticles in SFP scopes, so perhaps there is some agreement there.  

The rest makes no sense.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 17:45
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Oh, and for the record, there is a MUCH bigger difference between a 4mm wrench and 10mm wrench than between 9/16" and 3/4".  Also, unless your garage is very small, it is hard to resolve which exact kind of a wrench you are looking from all the way across it.

Also, the MOA vs Mil argument presented is kinda idiotic.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 20:16
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Out of all who responded to my post, how many are actual school trained snipers?  Anyone? 

Okay, let's add something else, how many here with combat experience as a sniper?

And to answer the guy with the cowboy picture by his name, I copied nothing from the internet.  This is all part of my curriculum that I teach.  You're welcome to give me a call or visit me in person if you still have an issue with me.  My website is www.vxmarksmanship.com  and my contact information can be found there.

And for those of you who still care to learn more about what you didn't understand from my earlier post.  Felt recoil is very important, because it's your shoulder!  The way you shoot effects the vertical, horizontal, torsional, and compressional whip reaction of a barrel.  HARD DATA does not lie.

The reason that I brought it up, is because ballistics chart can be calculated through the laws of physics.  Physics can only account for one type of recoil in dealing with this subject, which is "free recoil." 

And how come nobody has anything to say about environmental conditions effecting your data??  Was that stupid too?  Or do you just not understand that as you gain elevation the air gets thinner and creates less drag externally on your round.  Or that as a storm rolls in the barometric pressure drops and again creates less drag on your round.  Or that as temperature decreases the air gets thicker and creates MORE drag on your round.  How do you adjust?  Wait a second, the BDC should know that right??? Does it? 




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 20:47
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One more note for the cowboy picture guy:

When I was at the Nightforce factory in Orifino, ID I asked Jeff Huber a similar question about why we should have a mil-dot reticle with a minute turret?  I was so used to the Schmidt & Bender with the mils and mils system, and I liked it!  He explained to me about the refined accuracy that minutes allow Vs. mils.  My response was similar to your response to me...that 1/10 mil is almost as good as 1/4 minute.  But this is at a 100 yards.  What about 400?  What about 1000? 

Most of the shots I was having to take involved shooting from anything but the prone or "benchrest" position.  I had a my data memorized for both of my guns in mils in increments of 50m out to 900m.  When I began operating with a mil reticle and minute turret adjustment scope, I just multiplied my mils by 3 and a 1/2 to get my minute data when I needed to.   Since, I'm sure you know that the conversion from minutes to mils is 3.438 minutes per mil, right?


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 20:48
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Let's see a copy of your military training as a sniper, and records as a "combat sniper."

Doesn't matter whether you are using a BDC or mil-dots, you have to learn to use each correctly to make the best use of each type.  


Also, I guess you better got get a scope that 1/128th adjustments so you can hit the left mm of that flies wing at 1000 yards.

Most people won't continually shoot a gun that doesn't feel good to them.  Not sure on your argument that a well rounded shooter will only use a mil-dot moa system.  Shouldn't a "well rounded shooter" be able to use any effectively?  Or maybe "felt recoil" is only minimized by a mil-dot moa system?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 20:52
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helo18 guy,

Go take a visit to my website www.vxmarksmanship.com and you can find my bio there. 

You can call the number on the contact page right if you like, I'll answer.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 20:56
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hel18:

Waiting on your phone call to verify who I am???
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:00
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helo18:

Still waiting on a phone call to verify who I am...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:01
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There are plenty of people that go around on the internet claiming to be sniper trained and combat experience.  You come in here new to the site claiming things.  Of course we are going to ask for proof.  Get your panties out of a bunch.

I won't question your ability to shoot, but I would caution you to not question the ability of members on this site.  There are many here that can shoot.  There are many here that could probably teach you far more about physics and the effect of the environment on the bullet than learned or teach. 

There are people on this site that design bullets, know the concepts behind them, how they operate at speeds and in different weather and conditions.  It does not take away from a shooter having to know how to shoot.

My word of caution for you.  Don't come in here acting like you know the most about long range shooting and everyone else in here should drop everything to listen to your opinion only.

Thank you for your service to our country.  I am sincerely grateful for it. Salute
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:03
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oh, and calling does nothing to verify who you are.  You could call me and I could tell you anything I want, but without records, you wouldn't believe me.

If you care to give me a free class, I will come down to your range, sit through it, and then tell this forum what I think.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:14
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Helo18:

This is exactly why I had you go to my website.  It would be illegal for me to advertise myself as a corporation.  My number is the only one on the contact page.  I will not post a dd214 of my military service records online.  My company services civilians, law enforcement, and military snipers. 

Again, take the time to look through my website www.vxmarksmanship.com

I don't sell anything but a a few AR500 targets and instruction.  I'm not sponsored by any name brands.  I'm an instructor. 

Again, I'm waiting by my phone.  What are the odds that my website is illegally respresented on the web as corporation with my phone number on the contact page and when you call I'll be the one that actually answers?  I'm just sayin.

I will not give you a free class.  But you are welcome to pay, and join in the next law enforcement precision rifle course if, of course you are currently active duty military or law enforcement.  We'd love to have you.




Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:25
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Helo18:

My "panties are not in a bunch" but it cracks me up to hear you say that. 

I'm simply responding to the responses I received from my original article. 

I was called an idiot, intoxicated, inebriated, and inexperienced.  I have not called anyone else names??  Why would my "panties be in a bunch."

All of my experience comes from, well, practical experience and testing and testing and testing.  I have dealt with bullet manufacturers, scope manufacturers, and rifle manufacturers over and over, who were looking for our "thumbs up" on their products.  I never claimed to be smartest.  We simply tested everything with an objective mindset. 

I originally wrote my article, because I wanted to see what the response would be, because I have heard good things about the intellectual and experience levels of the members of this website.  I have noticed several trends that bother me and prompted me to write the article in the first place.  These trends are made by those who do not understand the importance of hard data Vs. relying on ballistic reticles. 

  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:27
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I have no need to call you.  And I will not pay to take a class from someone I know nothing about when I can get the same or better training from people I personally know and trust.

I am not questioning your corporation.  You came on here and made a claim, and I questioned it based on the many false claims on the internet.  You provided your site and I won't question it.

You may be an amazing shot. And be able to teach others to shoot.  But as I said, be careful what you claim is the best method around here, because there are people that know as much or more than you in the areas you talk about.



Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:31
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I wish I had known that this was an advertisement before I read all of that.  
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 21:44
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Originally posted by ckk1106 ckk1106 wrote:

I wish I had known that this was an advertisement before I read all of that.  

Laugh Above
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:16
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I hope the OP is not an indication of how clear the class instruction is.
 
 
BDC reticle systems are sufficiently precise to extend the range of most shooters to those ranges reasonably past MPBR.  They sure are better than the old "Hold just over his back!"
 
Some BDC systems like the MIL subtended BRH/BRX reticles or Premier BDCs are really usefull to the experienced shooter.
 
As always, verify your dope with real-world shooting (or is it hard data?).
 
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:20
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A shooter well versed in physics will immediately know the answer to this question: What does a bullet do immediately upon leaviing the barrel?  Simple question, simple answer... what say you "VX guy"?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:44
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First off, I'm new to the forum so I'd like to say Hello to everyone. 

As a former scout sniper, I was looking around to see if there was a forum where I could kick back and shoot the breeze about precision, long-range tactical shooting with other former or current snipers, and I came upon this one.

If this is, in fact, a discussion is about the usage of BDCs vs. hard data and the viability of minutes over mils with respect to dope settings and adjustments for precision, long-range firing solutions then I have to agree w/ VX Marksmanship that hard data and minute adjustment capability are the preferable way to go in long-range tactical shooting for a sniper.

I'm very accustomed to MIL-MIL orientation and I have no problem with it but my preference would be to be able to make minute adjustments over mil when shooting at distances greater than 500 yds. Also, I see the benefit of the BDC for those, especially for hunters, who shoot out to distances of say 300-500 yds. but for precision tactical shooting well beyond 500 yds., I would not even consider using a BDC and always use hard data.

Any other former 8541s here in the forum? If so, you'll remember as I do that during Scout Sniper School, the use of the Unertl BDC was verboten (we all considered them a crutch for something that should be part of the individual's core skillset) and in our advanced training we definitely grew to appreciate the value of hard data. I also remember all the discussions among us concerning the value of minute turrets over mil.

Are people's opinions about the original article directed toward precision, long-range tactical use or just in general? Just trying to understand where everyone's coming from. And again, I'm new here and I'm hoping to have some good conversations about tactical optics and shooting w/ others, especially, other 8541s, 0317s and LE snipers, too.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:50
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By the way, that spinning Taz avatar is pretty cool. I'm trying to put up an avatar but I'm not sure how to get it on my profile yet. Still working on setting profile info up.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/27/2012 at 22:59
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Welcome to the forum, FRM. 

I agree with the utility of MOA/MOA vs mil/mil, but prefer mil/mil to mil/MOA.  I agree that BDC has a fine application for hunting, which I believe is where most people use it.  However, with new PDF and smartphone technology, BDC's can be calculated very rapidly.  They no longer present many of the limitations they once did.  I'm not lobbying for them, just can see the utility.  I have a couple of hunting rifles with BDC scopes.  They, like any other tool, require constant and consistant use for rapdi and effective employment. 

Glad to have you aboard...

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