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Guts or glass? You decide...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 12:05
rootmanslim View Drop Down
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"Those who ignore the lessons of history do so at their own peril."
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 13:23
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no scope lasts a life time, innovations and advances outdates consumer optics (especially electronics). Whether a monarch is better than a leo 11 certainly would depend on the specific powers. If you want Leo and 12x get their 12x FX- its better than either. The indents used to "click" stop elevation and windage in ether the Leo or the Nikon are on par with the price, comparing them to the ball bearing raceways of a USO or S$B is comparing apples and oranges. (are they worth 4-6 times the price?) Leos optimal transmission is at different wavelengths than Nikons. (apparently Leo is going to change this with the new vx7's if you follow their press ). what does all this do with the first post international economics and history-when you come to the fork in the road take it.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 14:30
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Thanks for all of your input guys.  Cheaptrick, I respect your knowledge and experience very much, because I know that your experience far surpasses mine.  Personally, as a relatively poor undergraduate student, I would rather know that I will never have to buy another scope (at least for a very long while), regardless of what happens to it.  I love Nikons, don't get me wrong.  My Buckmaster was an outstanding scope.  There is just something about a Leupold that I can't quite put my finger on though.  They are light, short, rugged, their reticles are amazing, their matte finish is gorgeous and exceptionally durable, and their warranty is incredible.  All things considered, not JUST optical clarity, I think that Leupold offers the best balance in quality for the price.  Of course, I am neglecting the clearanced Nikon Monarchs.  However, I think I would buy a VX-II rather than the Monarch regardless of the sale.  I don't want to have to struggle with warranty fulfillment, and I love the fine duplex reticle !
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 14:52
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Two the original poster, why settle for one or the other, "guts or glass"? Get a 4200 and have both. Done deal.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 14:56
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Point well taken Roy.  I find the Bushnells slightly bulky, and overall, I just don't really care for them much.  Also, I have a difficult time finding a configuration I like in the 4200 series.  I have heard they're phenomenal though.  I've only looked through them.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 15:01
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They are phenomenal. However, if you want to talk yourself into the Leupold, which it appears you do, then by all means do so.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 15:14
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One of the biggest selling points for me is the fine duplex reticle.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 15:18
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You were on the right track before this thread........
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 15:31
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Hmm...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 15:56
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Originally posted by guitarman guitarman wrote:

Thanks for all of your input guys.  Cheaptrick, I respect your knowledge and experience very much, because I know that your experience far surpasses mine.

 

Maybe, maybe not. It's your investment of your money and time.

You should feel good about it.

 

Optic selections are VERY subjective.

And in Slim's case, geo-political. 

 

People recommend what they've used and/or what they had good experiences with.

I've had very good success with Nikon products, so that's what I recommend to people who ask.

(And some that don't.)  

 

Best of luck with whatever you go with.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 16:38
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I could not help but add my 2 cents to this discussion.  Leupold obviouly makes a good scope.  I have never owned one because everbody around me preaches to me that is what I should get.  So I went the other way.  And to me, they are over priced, but still a very good scope.  If someone prefers Leupold, so be it.  Its like a choice in rifles.  I catch grief from root for liking Wbys., despite the fact I own multiple other brands and love them all.  Thats one reason I would like to see more objective testing of scopes.  So if guitarman and mwyates want to buy Leupolds, that is their perogative and if they believe they are better to their eye, I cannot argue with that.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 18:06
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leupold does beat a tasco that's for sure
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 09:02
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Originally posted by SVD666 SVD666 wrote:

You were on the right track before this thread........

 

+1; I couldn't agree more.  I just finished reading every reply from page 1 to 4 and I'd be lying if I didn't say I'm a little disappointed.  I'm not trying to be hard on you but I'm a little miffed at your reasoning.

 

With all due respect "guitarman", you came to "THE" rifle optics website.  There is not a more informed, experienced and (in my opinion) more helpful community anywhere to help shooters understand the ins & outs of scopes.  You asked a question on what to buy and then provided your intended uses, applications and price range.  Next, this body of experts pretty much unanimously recommended the Nikon Monarch.  This recommendation was substantiated NOT with emotional opinions but with FACTS especially when discussing the pros & cons of Nikon vs. Leupold.  Now, as best I can tell, you've basically come back to square one and determined that you'll probably buy the Leupold because you like the way it looks & feels better even though this body of experts has pretty much turned blue in the face explaining that the Monarch has better glass, better pricing, better performance and identical warranty and durability.  Now I'm wondering why you asked the question in the first place and why this thread has gone on for 4 pages???  Why not just go out & buy what you want (Leupold) instead of posting the question here and then totally disregard the advice provided?

 

I'm reading what I just typed out and I realize that it might come across as a little harsh.  If so, I apologize.  However, I'm going to leave it as it is written because you need to realize something.  In the end, nobody really cares what you buy.  However, people do get their feathers ruffled when they take the time to share their knowledge and provide advice only to have it thrown right back at them.  Reading this back & forth, wishy-washy, I won't just make a decision thread began to get nauseating...  This began to read more like a dozen teenage girls talking about what to wear to the prom than a rifle scope forum!

 

 



Edited by ceylonc
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 09:31
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Yes, ceylonc, and I must admit that I did find that post a little insulting.  I have long understood the merits of debate when searching for a product of the highest quality for the best price.  I have gone through similar processes when choosing new guitars, new amplifiers, new pedals and etc...  Also, this seems to be the only forum that consistently warns against the use of Leupolds, and I must admit that at first this made me slightly suspicious.

 

There is nothing wrong with a little debate, it is healthy as a practice in one's own philosophy, and it can help someone attain a product of the highest value.  The latter is something that I find necessary, because I am on a rather tight budget, as I'm sure many of you are.

 

Anyway, I think you just helped me decide to make better use of my time.  Peace.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 10:00
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Originally posted by guitarman guitarman wrote:

Yes, ceylonc, and I must admit that I did find that post a little insulting.  I have long understood the merits of debate when searching for a product of the highest quality for the best price.  I have gone through similar processes when choosing new guitars, new amplifiers, new pedals and etc...  Also, this seems to be the only forum that consistently warns against the use of Leupolds, and I must admit that at first this made me slightly suspicious.

 

There is nothing wrong with a little debate, it is healthy as a practice in one's own philosophy, and it can help someone attain a product of the highest value.  The latter is something that I find necessary, because I am on a rather tight budget, as I'm sure many of you are.

 

Anyway, I think you just helped me decide to make better use of my time.  Peace.

 

Well, like I said, there is no intent to insult you or this debate.  I too understand and agree that there is a huge benefit in debating the pros & cons of a product before making a buying decision.  I myself have used this forum for help in making scope purchases and I did so for the same reasons as you: to obtain advice in determining the highest quality product that fit under my budget constraints.

 

I think you totally lost the spirit of my reply.  Then again, maybe it is my fault as I'm going on my third nightshift in a row.  I'm going on about 10 hours of combined sleep since Friday morning so forgive me if I come across as a little cranky.

 

You mentioned that you found this site suspicious because it "...consistantly warns against the use of Leupolds."  Why would you find that suspicious?  I'd say 95% of posts regarding Leupold products don't warn AGAINST their use, only that there are OTHER competiting scopes that feature better glass and reliable performance at a LOWER PRICE than Leupold.  I would think that this wouldn't make you suspicious but EXCITED because you're on a tight budget but want good, reliable quality.  The folks here are showing you the light and yet you seem to dismiss this relevation.  That is what is so confusing to me...

 

I'll hold out the olive branch and again express that I never intended to offend or make you feel that you and your discussions aren't welcome here.  Couldn't be further from the truth!  I hope that my posts have not run you off.  Just understand that the regulars here are very passionate about discussing the merits of rifle optics.  I feel comfortable saying that every one of us learns something new every time we log on.  I hope you'll decide to stay.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 10:30
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The internet is the home to lots of folks with opinions contrary to popular wisdom. They may be right or wrong. It does appear from visiting lots and lots of threads & blogs on a broad range of subjects that there is a tendency to support the perceived underdog. Leupold makes fine scopes as does Nikon. On pure $ right now the Monarch close out is an excellent deal. In my opinion the Leupold can be bought as new used on Ebay for about the same price as the Monarch. The Leupold guarantee is impossible to beat (not equal beat). As I have noted before the scope opinions here as elsewhere are rather subjective as nobody seems to do Consumer's reports side by side tests monitered by independent accredited testing labs. You can't go wrong with either scope and your perception of performance counts for a great deal.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 10:39
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Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

The internet is the home to lots of folks with opinions contrary to popular wisdom. They may be right or wrong. It does appear from visiting lots and lots of threads & blogs on a broad range of subjects that there is a tendency to support the perceived underdog. Leupold makes fine scopes as does Nikon. On pure $ right now the Monarch close out is an excellent deal. In my opinion the Leupold can be bought as new used on Ebay for about the same price as the Monarch. The Leupold guarantee is impossible to beat (not equal beat). As I have noted before the scope opinions here as elsewhere are rather subjective as nobody seems to do Consumer's reports side by side tests monitered by independent accredited testing labs. You can't go wrong with either scope and your perception of performance counts for a great deal.

 

i think somebody finally remembered there med's this morning!!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 11:10
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Would that be Thorazine?  Ceylonc, makes some good points.  After my post and reading his and while still believing it is up to guitarman to make his decision as to what he thinks is best, starting a thread and asking for advice put alot of people into thought modes that takes up their time, as they want to be helpful.  To thwart their advice, as though they came with preconceived notions as to what they were going to buy anyway, is not very thoughtful.  I am not saying that guitarman did this, but I could easily see how this could be seen as the case and understand Ceylonc's point of view.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 13:05
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Hey guys, I appreciate all of your advice very much, and ceylonc, thanks for your input.  Lol I'll do my best not to trigger ongoing debates, as I tend to do.  Believe it or not, I'm actually a pretty easy guy to get along with in real life, I just enjoy the merits of quality products.  Actually, I believe that Nikon and Leupold are of relatively equal quality.  Many custom rifle makers recommend both brands, and I think they're both awesome.  My very subjective opinion votes in favor (after much "hair splitting") of Leupold, but it is for very very specific reasons, and that is probably my own problem.  It's almost a coin toss.  At the price of the Monarchs right now, it is the best deal on the web.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 13:33
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Guitarman:

 

Judging from reading your posts you really want the Leupold, so I'd say go with the Leupold.  In my opinion which those are like, well elbows LOL I'd go with the Monarch at its price range but then again I fall into the catagory of thinking while very nice scopes I think Leupold is over priced.

 

You mention durability in a scope. Leupold is known for making a great durable (if a scope can truly be that) product. Yes, they also have the best warranty and one of the best customer service departments out there. I have never needed a warranty on a scope (watch now I cursed myself) but that is an important consideration.  For me, again not a Leupold guy but I like several key things:

*Made in America

* Soild reputation

* Good transferable warranty

 

One area that I personally really like with certain brands of optics that is very often over looked is re-sale value. Now while I never have had to send a scope or binoculars in for warranty work, I have sold off scopes and nocs over the years.  Leupold is known for holding their value, take a look on e-bay some time while you can never get full price for anything used if you decide to sell off the scope you still can get a decent price for it.

 

That was one of my big concerns when I bought my binoculars this year. I saved for an entire year (putting lunch money change aside LOL) and while optics are always the "biggest concern" (at that level you truely are splitting hairs) along with handling characteristics, warranty/customer service but I also took into account that the BIG Three really hold their value if or when I wanted to sell them off. I know the same to be true for Leupold Scopes.

 

Sometimes we (Me included ) tend to be a bit harsh on the Leupold products. I still belive that one can do better for less or equal money, however, there is nothing wrong with their scopes, in fact they still make a great scope. As bit over priced?  For me, I think they are but they have solid reputation.  Just as I have to remember that Leupold is still a very valid option its important for a Leupold fan to remember that there is other options out there as well.

 

Good Luck

AC

 



Edited by Acenturian
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 13:49
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Dolphin & Pyro... why is it necessary to attack someone as mentally ill with whom you disagree. You both seem to be VERY up on drugs used in treatment for mental illness... an interesting fact. (I had to google to see what all this stuff was).
Since you have this obvious fear or distate toward the mentally ill, you might want to hook up with out friend from Sweden as the Jews and the mentally ill all got the same tender care from people with his viewpoints.(aka the SS)
Just FYI: picking on people with handicaps is not really good manners and also legally actionable. So tone it down as it is inappropriate, offensive and makes you both out to be bigots and ignorant. Your apology is accepted in advance.
For you Guitarman..... consider the sources of your "expert" advice before believing it.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 13:54
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oh i'm sorry master i stand corrected, i forgot god is here on earth again! you know what since you are the all mighty and seem to know everything and have done everything without failure once in your life maybe you should take your weapon arsenal, since its the best on earth and you alone should go over seas and fix the so called "problem" i just call them as i see them and right now the only bigot is you! i have nothing to be sorry for either.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 14:12
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Root, you need to relax.  Nobody is picking on the mentally ill.  You have taken upon yourself to receive such criticism by contradicting every post and recommendations as though it is a personal attack on your beliefs.  Your rheotoric is tiresome and your rants are downright rude.  So before you get off on another tangent about the mentally ill, just relax.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 14:32
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With regards to Leupold, I think most here would agree they are a fine scope, just that they are higher priced than some brands/models offering equal or better optical performance.  And, yes, optical performance is somewhat a subjective thing, unless you are comparing very cheap optics with expensive optics. 

 

I believe selecting a scope is about more than just pure optical performance.  For one thing, a scope is first and foremost an aiming device.  It isn't intended to be used to scan the countryside for game; that's what binoculars and spotting scopes are made for.  This doesn't mean you shouldn't look for a scope offering good optics, but sometimes, optical performance might not be the most important factor in considering which scope to mount on a given rifle.  For specialized shooting such as competition and varmint shooting, sometimes the reticle design is more important than the optics.  Sometimes weight and length can be one of the most important considerations, depending on the rifle.  In this respect, I believe sometimes Leupold can actually be the best choice, since they offer more options than anyone else.

 

For most of my rifles, I didn't choose Leupold for the reasons already mentioned.  There are just too many fine scopes out there that offer a better value in my opinion.  However, there are a couple of applications where I believe a Leupold scope fits the bill perfectly.  For instance, say you wanted to build a super-light mountain rifle, where you were trying to shave every single unnecessary ounce off your equipment possible.  Having spent some time in the high country chasing after elk and mulies myself, where you'll carry your rifle for miles and maybe take 1 shot the whole trip, I can appreciate every ounce saved anywhere in my equipment.  The VX-III 1.75-6 and 2.5 - 8 are excellent choices for this type of rig -- light and compact.  The Swarovski AV 3-9X36 weighs about the same as those, but is considerably more expensive.  If you're a benchrest competitor and weight restrictions and POI stability call for a fixed 36X magnification class target scope, few optics companies besides Leupold (I think only Weaver and Sightron) even offer one.  If you're a varmint hunter, Leupold offers some interesting scopes for the application that are very competitive price & feature wise to other brands.  If you want to scope a compact rifle with something that proportionally just looks "right," a huge, super long scope may be totally out of proportion on the rifle.  Leupold scopes are among some of the shortest and lightest within a given magnification range.

 

It all depends on what the intended purpose for the scope is.  No matter what, I don't think you'd be in any way handicapped with a Leupold, and I believe it will provide you with several lifetimes of good service if that's what you really want.  I just agree with others here that the competition is so good these days that sometimes a Leupold doesn't seem to offer the best value for $ spent.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 14:53
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Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

Since you have this obvious fear or distate toward the mentally ill, you might want to hook up with out friend from Sweden as the Jews and the mentally ill all got the same tender care from people with his viewpoints.(aka the SS)
.

 

We have this one going on History 101 at Almost Anything Goes. Can we keep it there? This is starting to look like Glock Talk and they have moderators (very busy and good people).

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