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Guts or glass? You decide...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2007 at 19:11
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Ok guys, I realize I am relatively new to this forum, but I want to see what the experts think.  I was reading at http://huntshoot.coastangler.com/hunting/printthread.php?t=7 146, and I came across a very good point.  It has to do with what you really want out of a rifle scope.  One of the points brought up was that if the "glass" is of relatively high quality, then is there a possibility (especially in the $200-$400 range) that the quality of the internal components could be compromised?

 

I guess one specific circumstance that comes to mind is Leupold.  I have never heard anyone have very many bad things to say about the company, and I am STILL debating between the VX-II 4-12x40 and the Monarch UCC 4-12x40.  The biggest difference is the availability of a fine reticle in the VX-II 4-12 and not in the 4-12 offered by the Monarch.  And let's all face it, the VX-II is a beautiful scope, regardless of its performance.  I have gathered it is one of the best values in the Leupold family.

 

Wisdom would be appreciated!  Haha I hope this doesn't get too ugly...

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2007 at 19:30
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Stay away from Leupold mainly because they are overpriced.  The fact that in that mag. range, Nikon does not have a fine cross hair reticle, does not detract from the fact I would buy a Nikon with the Nikoplex reticle, especialy with the sale on the Monarch scopes.  The Monarchs out perform the VX-IIs, hands down.  The Monarchs compete with the VX-IIIs.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2007 at 19:33
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Do you mean they out-perform them in terms of light-collection, or what?  Sorry, I just have a very difficult time accepting that Leupold builds an overpriced scope.  Sure, they might not have 95% light collection, but they are substantially close to it, and they are built to take one heck of a beating.  I also find that they get consistently good reviews across the board (at least for the VX-II's), and especially for the 4-12x40AO w/ fine duplex reticle.  It seems like a perfect varminting scope...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2007 at 20:49
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You'll read a lot here that Leupold is overpriced.  I'm one of the few that disagrees, but I'm one of the few that looks for more in a scope than a pretty picture.  Get a Leupold if that's what you want: you won't be disappointed.  Get a VX III if you can, but if not the VX II is fine; it's the old Vari X III.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2007 at 21:51
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Thank you!  I was struggling with this.  I would rather have a rugged scope than exceptional light transmission, especially in regard to maintaining POI, FOV, etc.  I think Leupold takes this all into consideration rather than using light transmission as a selling point.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2007 at 22:02
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we must have two things in common, guns and guitars.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2007 at 22:03
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No kidding?  That's kickarse dude.  What do you play?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2007 at 22:23
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I think this article explains the quality of Leupold...http://www.chuckhawks.com/leupold_tour.htm

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/13/2007 at 23:18
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Originally posted by mwyates mwyates wrote:

You'll read a lot here that Leupold is overpriced.  I'm one of the few that disagrees, but I'm one of the few that looks for more in a scope than a pretty picture.  Get a Leupold if that's what you want: you won't be disappointed.  Get a VX III if you can, but if not the VX II is fine; it's the old Vari X III.

 

if the vxII is the old varixIII then i got a misprint on my old varixII, when they stopped making the varix series imo it fell apart at leupold, i bought a 3x9 varixII silver for 200 and its twice the scope the vx is and half the price

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 01:47
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I don't think it ever fell apart at Leupold.  I think they have incredible quality control, an amazing warranty, and the best value on the planet.  They may not have 95% light transmission, but I would much rather have a scope that will last a lifetime and have pretty close to it.  You need to check out this link and see for yourself http://www.chuckhawks.com/leupold_tour.htm.  Sorry guys, but I'm going with a Leupold!  No matter what happens, they will fix it, and it is VERY doubtful they'll have to anyway.

 

From what I understand, Nikons warranty is a joke, and they are very reluctant to back it up.  I don't feel comfortable with that...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 02:40
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Guitarman

 

I have owned 6 different Leupolds and I will never own one again unless the rises their quality considerably.

They are dark, note very bright, not very brilliant and have poor FOV and a non constant eyerelief.

 

So regardless of their price I think their scopes are heavaly inferior to others.

 

If you are buying scope on a budget , try to find a second hand quality scopes in stead.

 

Regards Technika

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 02:42
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What would you suggest www.technika.nu?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 02:44
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What gun, caliber and use?

 

Regards Technika

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 02:46
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Remington SPS 700, 22-250, varminting/occasional deer/MUCH target shooting.  Nice to have light-collecting abilities, but I won't be too cranky about 5 minutes, if it means a more durable scope.  $400 approximate budget.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 02:59
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Sorry

But my knowledge and interests is in european scopes.

I have looked through and used a lot of non european scopes always decided to go for european as i not have been enogh satisfied with the other parts of the world.

And as it's nice to have up to at least 10-12X on a warmint gun I don't know any high magnification scopes for that price.

 

I personally would probably stretch the budget up to 600 USD or more and try to find a Zeiss 3-12x56 secondhanded.

That way you would have first class optics, great low light possibilitys and acess to Zeiss great Bullet drop compensator.

 

Regards Technika

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 03:04
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I would LOVE to have a Zeiss, they are flawless, but 56mm is far too large for my tastes, you know?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 07:54
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Originally posted by guitarman guitarman wrote:

 And let's all face it, the VX-II is a beautiful scope, regardless of its performance.  I have gathered it is one of the best values in the Leupold family.

 

Wisdom would be appreciated!  Haha I hope this doesn't get too ugly...

 

 

 

Without being "ugly", I'd like to say this about the VXII's.

The VXII is not a real good buy, IMHO.

 

Here's an example.

 

  http://www.riflescopes.com/products/LEU61285/leupold_4-12x40 _vx-ii_riflescope.htm

Here you have a VXII, with a LR reticle and AO.

Price..$429.00

 

http://www.riflescopes.com/products/6546/nikon_4-12x40_monar ch_ucc_riflescope.htm

This is a Nikon Monarch, with AO and the new BDC reticle.

Price...$286.00

 

That's a difference of $143.00

 

Problem is, the Monarch is a better scope OPTICALLY speaking.

I have looked through both, as have many others, and have concluded the Monarch's flat-out better in that regard.

 

The eye relief on the Loopie "seems" better on paper.

But, there's almost a 1" difference between the low setting and the highest.

 

Head positioning becomes a little hinky and uncomfortable, IMO.

(I prefer "fixed" eye relief as opposed to variable. Read..Zeiss Conquest)

Yes, I'm aware that both scopes have varying eye relief, but the Monarch has less variance.

Approximately 1/2".

Less travel to get a good sight picture with the Monarch.   

 

The biggest gripe in my AO with Leupolds is the varying eye relief causing cheekweld/head postioning issues.

That's what I'm hearing. 

 

So I'd take the Monarch over the VXII every time.

Leupold's legendary customer service isn't worth $143.00 and less performance to me.

 

Standing by for incoming from myates and the Leupoldites.........    

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 07:57
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BTW.

The Monarch's just as tough as the VXII as well.

 

Out.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 10:38
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I appreciate your insight, cheaptrick.  But what about Nikon's overseas production?  I realize that many of their scopes are great, but there is something to be said for Leupold's perfectionist manufacturing methods.  Many of their workers are outdoorsman themselves, and they take a great deal of pride in their work.  Also, what is to be said of Nikon's horrid warranty service?  I have heard some very disturbing stories, especially the one involving one individual who got a bill of $170 for warranty work (for a Monarch).  Leupold will fix your scope if no matter what happens to it.  You could decide to run over it with your car and they would replace it at no cost.  I think that the quality of their warranty reflects on the long run quality of Leupold scopes.  Sure, the glass might not be quite as good as Nikon's, but are the innards of a Nikon as good as a Leupold's?  I'm not sure.  Is the warranty of a Nikon as good as a Leupold's?  Absolutely not.  Are Nikon's assembled in the U.S.A.?  Nope.  I plan on keeping this scope for decades, I want it to last forever. 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 10:59
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Originally posted by guitarman guitarman wrote:

Are Nikon's assembled in the U.S.A.?  Nope. 

 

Is the Leupold a TOTALLY, 100% US made product?  Nope.

 

I could care less where my scopes manufactured at, so long as the standard is there, and Nikon's is.

Nobody has convinced me that they could tell the difference between a Japanese Nikon and one made in The PI.

TO ME..it's a moot point as to WHERE they are put together.

Maybe not to you and others and that's cool too.

 

This whole "I only buy USA built gear" is ridiculous.

The very computer sitting before you is loaded with parts from around the world, I would assume also.

 

Bottom line is this....If you want the VXII, get the VXII. Hell, go the full Monty and get the VXIII. 

You've obviously convinced your self that it's the better of the two scopes.

 

Good shooting.

Out.

 



Edited by cheaptrick
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:09
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The Nikon Monarch deal (right now) is almost impossible to pass up,BUT here's another thought...
You can buy a minty used Leupold on Ebay for the same price as the Monarch. There will probably be nothing wrong with it (I"ve bought 7 over the past 5 years in all grades & Xs) BUT if there is Leupold will fix it in a week for free.
That's what I call CYA! Leupold even apoligized to me when I sent back my purple (older than most of y'all) M8 6X that I dropped and broke the crosshair (yes crosshair!). Why were they "sorry"? because they no longer made the fine straight wire and dot and would a tapered fine wire & dot be okay? Back in one week with a complete chart of the windage & elevation limits FOR FREE! it went back on my Sauer 375 H&H and has continued to digest numerous thumper loads on a 9 lb all up rig w/o a whimper. Some experts may be right that there are scopes that may be better for the money when you buy them BUT for the total picture you can't go wrong with a "loopie". (I won't even mention that it is nice to employ real Americans working for an American company rather than support the folks who put 100 of thousand of our fathers & grandfathers in the ground or some VA hospital hellhole)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:14
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Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

(I won't even mention that it is nice to employ real Americans working for an American company rather than support the folks who put 100 of thousand of our fathers & grandfathers in the ground or some VA hospital hellhole)

 

I'm confused.

It's OK to buy "the deal" on the Jap scope, but not at list price because after all, we did fight them in WWII??

 

Isn't that somewhat hypocritical, slim?

Check......A LOT hypocritical, slim??

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:16
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oh so now we have to buy a leupold just to keep people employed, tell everyone that bought a toyota of a honda that they have to drive inferior cars because you want people to keep a job, why should i be forced to by an inferior product just because its made here
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:42
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'm sure the captains of industry in Japan and China fully agree with you. Sometime catch the History channel show on how the boys in Seattle who built the B-17s were secretly negotiating with Japan in 1941 YES 1941 to license production of the B-17 to Japan. Collaborators and the misguided have always existed and still do (see pelollozi, murtha et al.)

My only ASIDE (IT WAS AN ASIDE) was that given the alternative, one might consider history in the equation.
As Bob Dylan put it so well:"though they killed 6 million, in the ovens they fried, the Germans now too have God on their side."

To quote my favoite sage Tom Matussi: "all events in human history can be traced to either (or and) greed and stupidity"

You can buy whatever you want. God knows we are enabling the Mullahs plans to destroy us by buying their oil rather than just taking it. It is instructive to see how the Chinese handled the recent Muslim uprising in western china (they killed them all). Very distasteful but rather like how we USED to handle those who threatened America's existance or even what we wanted. (see native Americans, WW II for enlightenment)

Empires which forget to act like empires end up on the ash heap of history. (ask Tony Blair)
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 11:48
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Originally posted by rootmanslim rootmanslim wrote:

'm sure the captains of industry in Japan and China fully agree with you. Sometime catch the History channel show on how the boys in Seattle who built the B-17s were secretly negotiating with Japan in 1941 YES 1941 to license production of the B-17 to Japan. Collaborators and the misguided have always existed and still do (see pelollozi, murtha et al.)

My only ASIDE (IT WAS AN ASIDE) was that given the alternative, one might consider history in the equation.
As Bob Dylan put it so well:"though they killed 6 million, in the ovens they fried, the Germans now too have God on their side."

To quote my favoite sage Tom Matussi: "all events in human history can be traced to either (or and) greed and stupidity"

You can buy whatever you want. God knows we are enabling the Mullahs plans to destroy us by buying their oil rather than just taking it. It is instructive to see how the Chinese handled the recent Muslim uprising in western china (they killed them all). Very distasteful but rather like how we USED to handle those who threatened America's existance or even what we wanted. (see native Americans, WW II for enlightenment)

Empires which forget to act like empires end up on the ash heap of history. (ask Tony Blair)

 

Well yeah, there's all that and what not.

 

guitarman, good luck with whatever you decide on.

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