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Gun firing when I lock the bolt down

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/24/2013 at 23:25
Gil P. View Drop Down
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I was doing some dry fire practice today and I noticed that when I lock the bolt down the firing pin is released without me pulling the trigger.

Prior to this happening the first pull of the trigger was heavier than the subsequent pulls after the firing pin had been cocked for a few minutes.

I am using a Timney 510 trigger. It was adjusted by a reputable gunsmith about 400-500 rounds ago.

I haven't cleaned the trigger since I was at a rifle match a couple of weeks ago and it was very windy and dusty. I did field strip the bolt and clean and re lubricate it.

Does anyone have any idea why this is happening and what I can do? My rifle is a Remington 700.

Edited by Gil P. - June/24/2013 at 23:41
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2013 at 01:45
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It could be that your trigger adjustment has moved and it is slipping on the sear. Timney triggers are easy to adjust.
Cock your rifle and bang the rifle butt first on the ground. Is it firing?
Flick your safety on and off. Is it firing?
 
If so, these are signs that your trigger sear adjustment is wrong or has worn etc.
 
If you cannot do it yourself, a visit to most gunsmiths can fix it in a jiffy.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2013 at 05:31
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Also, Remington has been having issues with their rifles going off accidentally in the exact same manner as you have described.  Someone on this site has even put up a youtube video of shooters demonstrating this dangerous situation....somewhere on this site.....
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2013 at 05:57
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FYI,what SOE said is correct but it  has been proven by Remington that it only happens on modified guns,not factory stock guns! 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2013 at 08:17
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My Ruger with a Timmney trigger started doing exactly the same thing, when I stripped the rifle you could see how the sear had become extremely polished. I guess it was just slipping over it instead of stopping in place.

Just do like 8shots said and adjust the trigger, it will sort the problem out.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2013 at 12:54
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This is a problem that sometimes happens with enclosed housing trigger designs like the Rem, Timney, etc. units. In every case that I've seen this problem, it was due to oil/grease running down into the housing around the sear, then getting caked up with grit and residue, thereby locking up or slowing down sear reset. This happens even without intent when oil and barrel cleaners from normal maintenance accidentally run down into the trigger housing. You're getting a gummy film trapped between the side plates of the trigger housing and the sides of the sear. It doesn't happen with "open" trigger assy designs like the legacy Win M70, because there are no side plates to trap the gunk against moving parts. The solution is to remove the barreled action from the stock, then flood the inside of the housing with lighter fluid, mineral spirits, or other solvent (squirted through the top of the trigger assy, around the sear and allowed to run down into the housing) to flush out the gelled lubricant and/or accumulated debris. When you think you've fully flushed out the gunk, work the bolt and dry fire several times afterward to confirm sear reset is back to normal again. Periodically flush the trigger assy with lighter fluid to keep it clean. Don't use oils inside the trigger as it just attracts debris. Trigger components don't move much and don't receive any significant head and friction, and therefore don't need added lubrication. Just keep it clean.

DO NOT adjust your trigger until you've done the above, as your problem is unlikely to be related to adjustments IF your trigger was previously adjusted to a safe condition to begin with. The only situations that could cause your once safe trigger adjustments to be unsafe now is if the person who did the adjustments neglected to use some kind of thread locker on the adj screws, someone messed with your trigger without your knowledge, you've somehow had abnormal wear on sear surfaces, or your springs have somehow weakened over time. 


Edited by RifleDude - June/25/2013 at 13:03
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2013 at 16:27
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

This is a problem that sometimes happens with enclosed housing trigger designs like the Rem, Timney, etc. units. In every case that I've seen this problem, it was due to oil/grease running down into the housing around the sear, then getting caked up with grit and residue, thereby locking up or slowing down sear reset. This happens even without intent when oil and barrel cleaners from normal maintenance accidentally run down into the trigger housing. You're getting a gummy film trapped between the side plates of the trigger housing and the sides of the sear. It doesn't happen with "open" trigger assy designs like the legacy Win M70, because there are no side plates to trap the gunk against moving parts. The solution is to remove the barreled action from the stock, then flood the inside of the housing with lighter fluid, mineral spirits, or other solvent (squirted through the top of the trigger assy, around the sear and allowed to run down into the housing) to flush out the gelled lubricant and/or accumulated debris. When you think you've fully flushed out the gunk, work the bolt and dry fire several times afterward to confirm sear reset is back to normal again. Periodically flush the trigger assy with lighter fluid to keep it clean. Don't use oils inside the trigger as it just attracts debris. Trigger components don't move much and don't receive any significant head and friction, and therefore don't need added lubrication. Just keep it clean.

DO NOT adjust your trigger until you've done the above, as your problem is unlikely to be related to adjustments IF your trigger was previously adjusted to a safe condition to begin with. The only situations that could cause your once safe trigger adjustments to be unsafe now is if the person who did the adjustments neglected to use some kind of thread locker on the adj screws, someone messed with your trigger without your knowledge, you've somehow had abnormal wear on sear surfaces, or your springs have somehow weakened over time. 


This is, by far, the best explanation / fix I have ever encountered to rectify this issue.  Excellent
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2013 at 16:56
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Yes! Nice write up Ted. I also have experienced this. The lighter fluid works wonders.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2013 at 18:07
Gil P. View Drop Down
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:







This is a problem that sometimes happens with enclosed housing trigger designs like the Rem, Timney, etc. units. In every case that I've seen this problem, it was due to oil/grease running down into the housing around the sear, then getting caked up with grit and residue, thereby locking up or slowing down sear reset. This happens even without intent when oil and barrel cleaners from normal maintenance accidentally run down into the trigger housing. You're getting a gummy film trapped between the side plates of the trigger housing and the sides of the sear. It doesn't happen with "open" trigger assy designs like the legacy Win M70, because there are no side plates to trap the gunk against moving parts. The solution is to remove the barreled action from the stock, then flood the inside of the housing with lighter fluid, mineral spirits, or other solvent (squirted through the top of the trigger assy, around the sear and allowed to run down into the housing) to flush out the gelled lubricant and/or accumulated debris. When you think you've fully flushed out the gunk, work the bolt and dry fire several times afterward to confirm sear reset is back to normal again. Periodically flush the trigger assy with lighter fluid to keep it clean. Don't use oils inside the trigger as it just attracts debris. Trigger components don't move much and don't receive any significant head and friction, and therefore don't need added lubrication. Just keep it clean.


DO NOT adjust your trigger until you've done the above, as your problem is unlikely to be related to adjustments IF your trigger was previously adjusted to a safe condition to begin with. The only situations that could cause your once safe trigger adjustments to be unsafe now is if the person who did the adjustments neglected to use some kind of thread locker on the adj screws, someone messed with your trigger without your knowledge, you've somehow had abnormal wear on sear surfaces, or your springs have somehow weakened over time. 







Rifledude,
I am glad you posted this because before I was having this problem, I was trying to flush some bedding compound out of the holes in the top of the receiver with some lubricant. I tried not to allow it to drip down into the actions but it may very well have, and since it was the rear receiver holes, it probably leaked into the top of the trigger housing.

Ill flush it out like you said (I assume I can just do it through the inside of the receiver without removing the trigger assembly from the action) and let you know how it has worked.

Thanks for the great post!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2013 at 18:37
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You should remove the trigger assembly...
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2013 at 22:52
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Will do.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/25/2013 at 22:55
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Thankfully you caught it without an AD
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2013 at 09:01
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You usually don't have to remove the trigger assy from the action to clean it out, as long as the action is outside the stock. The only time you'd need to remove it from the action is if you want to completely remove the sear from the housing, and you shouldn't have to do that unless it is REALLY gummed up or the parts are corroded and you need to remove rust from the sides of the sear. On a factory Rem trigger, the drift pins that hold it in the action also contain the sear. The forward pin also serves as the sear hinge, in fact. If you take both pins out, you have to be careful not to lose the sear spring, which may fly out and get lost as a result.

Remove it from the receiver ONLY if flushing it with it still attached doesn't resolve the problem. Otherwise, the trigger is really no less accessible when attached to the receiver as detached, because the open slot in the receiver where the sear protrudes is where you want to squirt the lighter fluid/mineral spirits, and the remaining sides of the assy are completely exposed below the receiver anyway.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2013 at 11:24
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This is why I love this forum...  Friendly brainiacs!!!  Excellent  Excellent  Excellent
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2013 at 13:03
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Originally posted by budperm budperm wrote:

This is why I love this forum...  Friendly brainiacs!!!  Excellent  Excellent  Excellent


+1
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/26/2013 at 22:41
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Who you kidding Bud,you love this forum because of Ed's girls Big Smile
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2013 at 10:30
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SHHHHHH!  ED's head is big enough already... Wink
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2013 at 16:00
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Good news, flushing the trigger housing with lighter fluid seems to have worked. It is no longer firing when I lock the bolt down. Thanks, Rifledude.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/27/2013 at 19:20
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Ted, Ted he's our man. If he can't fix it, nobody can!!! Excellent
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2013 at 05:27
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Hmmmm makes me worry about the trigger design when a little bit of gunk can cause big problems!!!  Glad it seems to be fixed by I'd forever be worried about that trigger doing it again at the worst possible time... Cool
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2013 at 10:53
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You're very welcome, Gil.

This isn't a design problem with Remington triggers per se. This is an issue that can crop up with ALL enclosed trigger assemblies with side plates -- Remington, Timney, Rifle Basix, Shilen, Jewell, Sako / Tikka, Howa, Savage, Kimber, Cooper, Browning A-Bolt and X-Bolt, new style Win 70, and so forth. The reason is simple -- the side plates trap the crud inside. This is why the original Winchester M70 trigger design is probably the most foolproof trigger ever created. It's mechanically simple and totally open. The tradeoff is it's not capable of having quite as good a trigger pull as the multi-lever, more complex designs, which all require enclosed assemblies with side plates to hold the pins and multiple moving parts in position.

You have to keep triggers clean to ensure function. Don't let oil and grease fall inside the assembly, which attracts crud.

Bottom line is always practice the 4 basic rules of gun safety and even if you do have an unintended discharge because of this, other than frightening you, you and those around you will still be safe, since the firing pin cannot contact the primer unless the bolt is closed. Closing the bolt slowly will also lessen the chance of the primer being ignited, as you're unloading the firing pin spring gradually as the cocking piece slowly rides down the cocking cam, rather than letting its full stored energy release all at once.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/28/2013 at 10:58
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Good info Ted!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/02/2013 at 20:23
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Update:
 
Since my last post, I managed to bend the safety plate on the outside of the trigger housing slightly, making it almost impossible to engage the safety. While the trigger was in this condition, I noticed that the trigger had a heavier pull than before. I went for a little while without shooting it and called Timney's customer service. They have fantastic CS and I was able to get a new safety plate within a week. I installed the new plate without a problem, the safety works fine now. But when I went to the range the trigger pull seemed very heavy (don't have a trigger pull gauge). The pull was set at 2.5 pounds by a gunsmith and it felt great, I never had any problems with the trigger until it started going off when I locked the bolt down as described above.
 
When I got home today, I adjusted the trigger pull per Timney's instructions and it seems to have lightened the pull a little bit, except the firing pin is being released just like before when I lock the bolt down. I have never adjusted the sear engagement. Also the firing pin releases whenever I lock the bolt down hard, and occasionally when I gently lock it down.
 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/03/2013 at 18:04
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So I tried setting the sear engagement back to factory settings and my problem seems to have been resolved. It did say that I need to turn the sear engagement "one flat turn counter clockwise" to adjust it back to normal. I don't know what one flat turn in, so I just turned it about 1/8 and called it good. If I turned it one full turn counterclockwise, the trigger would move a lot. I was able to pull the trigger shoe back towards me and then have to push it back to return it to its original position which didn't seem right.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/03/2013 at 21:50
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Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

You usually don't have to remove the trigger assy from the action to clean it out, as long as the action is outside the stock. The only time you'd need to remove it from the action is if you want to completely remove the sear from the housing, and you shouldn't have to do that unless it is REALLY gummed up or the parts are corroded and you need to remove rust from the sides of the sear. On a factory Rem trigger, the drift pins that hold it in the action also contain the sear. The forward pin also serves as the sear hinge, in fact. If you take both pins out, you have to be careful not to lose the sear spring, which may fly out and get lost as a result.

Remove it from the receiver ONLY if flushing it with it still attached doesn't resolve the problem. Otherwise, the trigger is really no less accessible when attached to the receiver as detached, because the open slot in the receiver where the sear protrudes is where you want to squirt the lighter fluid/mineral spirits, and the remaining sides of the assy are completely exposed below the receiver anyway.
I forgot all about this thread. 
 
I do... takes more time, but then I am sure I check and make sure everything is as clean as it can be.  I like looking at the construction.  However, mostly nowadays, I just send rifles to my gunsmith for a good cleaning every year.  I've found that method easiest and least time consuming.  I've never asked him what he does... probably will now the next time I take him a rifle. 
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