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group shift, 2 grouping?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2006 at 06:05
rogn View Drop Down
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Just shot my savage front loaded in anticipation of the late season and found that at 200yds, Im getting 2 groups. The one on the right is small and the one 2 1/2" to the left is larger by a factor of 2. This wound up being very consistnt for a total of 12 shots. It was an alternating one shot left, one shot right. Im guessing that the scope may well be the culprit here. Does anyone agree with this wasg?  rogn
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2006 at 10:43
Wally View Drop Down
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I'm going through the same problem with a new scope I recently purchased.  This is what I did:

 

First I checked for any other possible loose screws, such as action screws, base screws, etc.  Sometimes they might cause this.  In my case everything was good.

 

I was lucky enough to have another scope with me at the range that day.  I pulled the suspect scope off, and mounted the other scope.  I my case, the problem immediately went away.  I was also lucky, because I had used a target scope to work up the load on this particular rifle.  I was shooting the exact same load, except for a new box of bullets, so I had a pretty good idea what the rifle should be doing.  If you have another scope to try, maybe you can borrow one. 

 

Most of the scope companies will tell you that 95% of the scopes they have sent in for repairs have nothing wrong with them.  Personally, this statement causes me heartburn.  In my case, to prove to myself the scope really has a problem, I took this process one step farther.

 

I then mounted the same scope on another rifle.  This rifle is freaky accurate with several loads.  I went to the range with this rifle, and 20 rds of it's favorite ammo just yesterday.  Sure enough, 2 groups, alternating shots back and forth nearly every time.  Sometimes it would shoot two shots in the same group, but you could bet your bottom dollar the third shot was going in the second group.

 

Now I can send the scope back with a clear conscience.  But, I will write a very detailed letter explaing what happened, and the steps I took to make sure.  Yes, it is somewhat costly, time consuming, and a PITA, but I've had much better luck getting scopes repaired properly when I have verified the problem with this method, and explained the problem to the scope company in a polite, respectful, yet detailed manner.

 

For example, 2 years ago I returned a scope that developed about 6" to 7" of parallax while I was working up a elk load for the rifle on which it was mounted.  It was fairly easily to see and diagnose, a virtual no brainer.  I boxed the scope up and sent it in, with a very short note saying the rifle would not hold zero.  I felt like I would be insulting someones intelligence to go into detail about the problem, because the problem was so painfully obvious.  The scope was returned to me, but was not repaired.  As soon as I mounted the scope, and laid it in the bags, I could see the problem.  You can bet your a$$ that company got a VERY detailed letter on the second attempt, plus a phone call.

 

I hope this helps.  It may seem like a lot of trouble, but it's necessary for the best results.  Let me know if you have any questions.  I'll help anyway I can.  I have been down this same road of frustration more than I care to remember.  What I'd like to know is why does it happen 2 weeks before a big hunting trip?

 

Steve

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2006 at 13:54
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Fellas, what brand and models of scopes are giving you trouble?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2006 at 17:36
rogn View Drop Down
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Was hesitant to name brand. Didnt want to be negative. Was Nikon Monarch.  All screws and mounts tight, the rings are lapped.. mounts loctighted, etc. Ive got a few other scopes to try ,BUT muzzle loader starts Saturday. Im still good enough that I should be on the shoulder out to 150yd. Will do the scope transplant when Im not so pressed.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2006 at 18:03
Wally View Drop Down
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I'm really not interested in naming names either.  I've had problems with 4 different brands, but the majority of the scopes come from a company that I probably won't be using very much in the future.  They are all good companies, and for the most part, have made every attempt to satisfy me. 

 

It was not my intention to lambast any particular scope company.  I was only trying to help someone asking for assistance, as well as sharing my experiences in this area.  Many people say they never have had scope problems.   My experience is quite the contrary.  Maybe I'm just snakebit when it comes to scopes.  My personal feeling is scope problems occur more than people realize.  In fact, as I look back, I think I may have traded off some rifles that had nothing wrong with them, but I thought they were lousy shooter.  I'm wondering how many of those really had scope issues!

 

Yesterday while I was at the range, sorting out my own scope issue, I couldn't help overhearing two gentlemen at the bench next to me.  They were fussing and fuming over a rifle that wouldn't zero.  The were blaming the rifle, the ammo, the chamering, and everything else they could think of, but never once mentioned the scope, because it was their favorite "best" brand, and they firmly believed this particular brand would never have problems.  Yet, the issues they were having seemed to be scope problems, as well as operator errors, when it came to twisting the knobs.  As best as I could tell from observing, there was probably nothing wrong with the rifle to cause the wild shots they were getting.

 

These days if a rifle doesn't have an obvious problem, I try 2 or 3 loads that have always given good results for myself and several other people I know.  If the rifle in question doesn't start to show promise fairly soon, I will change out the scope, and try again.  As fine as most scopes are today, they are still the weak link.

 

YMMV,

Steve

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2006 at 18:17
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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We like to gather information both good and bad on various types and models of scopes here.

See if you you taken care of by the manufacturer, etc.

 

Were referred to as Optics Geeks.

 

rogn had a Nikon Monarch fail.

I love the Monarch. I just got a 6.5-20 with a lit mil dot in the other day.

Doesn't change my opinion of the scope at all.

I'll be interested in knowing how Nikon takes care of him through their CS dept.

 

Keep us advised.

 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/14/2006 at 20:46
Wally View Drop Down
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I've been lurking around this forum for a few months now.  I really appreciate the people at SWFA making it available.  I've learned a lot.  That's the main reason I lurk, I always learned more from listenting than talking.  On other forums is always seems to start a first class pi$$ing match if you say something negative about somebody's favorite scope.  Optics and bullets performance always seem to be very volatile topics.  It would not do any good for me to mention the specific brands and models of scopes that I have given me problems.  For every one I mention, there would be many that would come back and say they've never had problems with that particular scope.  My examples mean very little, except that I had problems with the ones I happened to purchase.  Luck of the draw I guess.

 

Also, as I said earlier, all of the companies involved made more than fair attempts to make the problems right, especially after I learned to double check the suspected scopes, and then explain to them in detail that I made sure there was really a problem before I shipped the scope to them.  It is not my intention to abuse any companies warranty or customer service unnecessarily.

 

Of course, there have been some times when there were problems besides the scope.  I don't want it to sound like the scope was ALWAYS the culprit.  There have been a few times it turned out to be the loose nut behind the bolt!  I've been a certified rifle looney for about 32 years now, and still learn every day.  It's always a challenge.

 

FWIW,

Steve

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2006 at 01:18
cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Wally Wally wrote:

On other forums is always seems to start a first class pi$$ing match if you say something negative about somebody's favorite scope. 

 

Yes Sir. I know what you mean there......... 

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2006 at 06:53
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I too have had this problem with a Tikka T3 Hunter 25-06 and thought it was the scope.  I posted a review of the rifle and the Mueller scope.  Alas, it was not the scope, rifle or mounts.  It was the Hornady ammo.  My rifle, was different in that it all of the sudden started shooting tight groups several inches from the first group.  So, I switched to Rem. 100 grain Core-Lokt and walla, perfect groups consistentally through an entire box of shells.  The relatively inexpesive Mueller was not to blame.  I was to mount a Sightron SII on the rifle, but would not fit and has since been mounted on a Wby. Vanguard 300Wby. Magnum, with sub. 1 inch groups easily at 100 yards.  (Wby. ammo.).  Some guns as we all know like some ammo. and dislike other ammo.  I can only assume, once the barrel heated to a certain level and the oscillatory pattern and curvature of the barrel as well as other factors changed, so did the impact point.  The every other shot pattern could be explained by the fact that your barrel was so sensitive to cooling between shoots, that it exhibited this pattern, depending on the timing of your shots.  Interesting.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/15/2006 at 07:25
Urimaginaryfrnd View Drop Down
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Sometimes it is the rings and base and the optic gets the blame. I've even had steel leupold mounts fail and they are usually quite good.  I am a little shy of any that are aluminum. I got my first set of Badger rings and base the other day and sighted in at 200 yds with a 1/2 in group (go figure).
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