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Gotta ask here 7mm Ultra Mag by any other

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2006 at 15:12
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Hi all! I have been looking at the 7mm Remington Ultra Mag for some time now... and man does it seem hot. I originally liked the STW and watched it, but this ultra performs a lot better and seems less volatile.
Anyway, here is where i offend a lot of people, but while i love Rem calibres I cannot stand their firearms. I have had three and NONE of them shot groups for me no matter what load i tried! Plus they will not jump on board with adjustable trigger pull or set triggers.
So, have any of you found the 7mm Remington Ultra Mag produced by any other rifle makers??? IF SO PLEASE HELP!

Thanks - Rod

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Originally posted by Superlite17 Superlite17 wrote:

Anyway, here is where i offend a lot of people, but while i love Rem calibres I cannot stand their firearms. I have had three and NONE of them shot groups for me no matter what load i tried! 

 

 

Yeah Brother, those Remingtons just won't shoot for nothing.......

(Photo above, a 5 shot 100 yard group, provided by Miss Black Betty...A Remington 700 .308.... )

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2006 at 18:26
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I was under an impression that hugely overbore cartridges like 7mm UltraMag are far harder to make shoot than something a little more balanced, such as 308Win.

Then again, I am far too much of a wimp to shoot an Ultra Mag (besides, I am not convinced that extra 300fps are really worth it for me).

I am not a big fan of Remington rifles either.  I have yet to see one shoot well out of the box.  They can be made to shoot well for not a lot of money though.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2006 at 18:36
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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I was under an impression that hugely overbore cartridges like 7mm UltraMag are far harder to make shoot than something a little more balanced, such as 308Win.

 

I had a Remington Sendero S/F .300 RUM that would shoot as good as Betty, with handloads.

 

Maybe I just have a charmed life with Remingtons, but I have never had one that wouldn't shoot MOA or better. 

That group above is not the best group I've ever shot with Betty either.

 

Oh....and both were/are stock except trigger jobs. 

The .300 RUM had a muzzlebrake on it and a drop in Rifle Basix trigger.

Betty the .308 shot that good before I bedded the action. 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/16/2006 at 18:53
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The 7 Ultra has gained a rep. for being finicky as far as accuracy is concerned. Probably has to do with trying to push a 140-150 gr. bullet at a billion fps. I am not quite sure what you mean by being less volatile, if anything, it is more. Gunsmiths love both of them cause it keeps them busy with re-barreling. As far as Remington's are concerned, I don't know what you are doing wrong. My experience is 180 degree's from yours. Frankly, I can't remember anyone complaining about the accuracy of a 700. My 280 Ackley and 300 WM are without a doubt the most accurate rifles I've ever owned. If I'm looking to build an accurate rifle, you can be sure it's going to have a 700 action in the middle. Regarding another rifle chambered for the barrel blazing 7 Ultra, I believe Sako does in the 75. If the Ultra doesn't cut it for ya, maybe you can try the 7-50BMG.

 

cheaptrick: sorry you had to spend all that money to make that POS shoot half MOA. Dam Remington's. !!!!!!!!

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2006 at 00:37
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I've had mixed luck with remmington rifles. Some have been very accurate after a good working over by a gunsmith. Most of the really top quality sniper rifles are built on REM actions. TAC-OPS, GAP etc. It is easier to find a gunsmith for a Rem than most other rifles.

My 700 PSS took a while before I figured out what it likes. I read something about some rifles prefering light upward pressure under the barrel, so I folded a piece of paper and put it under the barrel to create upward pressure and it now shoots very well.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2006 at 00:39
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As for the 7mm UltraMag - I think you could kill everything you want with a 30-06 or 270 without near the cost or pain.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2006 at 07:15
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I would check these guys out: HILL COUNTRY RIFLES.  They can either accurize your 700 for @$350 or make you a custum one for about $1600.  They have a pretty unique guarantee.  You can find their info in ST.  Let us know how it turns out!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2006 at 15:51
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Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

cheaptrick: sorry you had to spend all that money to make that POS shoot half MOA. Dam Remington's. !!!!!!!!

 

A 15 minute trigger job and a couple of bucks worth of epoxy bedding.....

 

Good post, Roy.

It's the singer, not the song.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2006 at 15:54
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As I said above:

I am not a big fan of Remington rifles either.  I have yet to see one shoot well out of the box.  They can be made to shoot well for not a lot of money though.

It seems like you are basically agreeing with me.

ILya


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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

As I said above:

I am not a big fan of Remington rifles either.  I have yet to see one shoot well out of the box.  They can be made to shoot well for not a lot of money though.

It seems like you are basically agreeing with me.

ILya

 

No Sir, I respectfully do not agree with you about Remingtons not being "factory accurate" as a rule.

I have seen some more accurate than others too.

 

The rifle that shot the above group shot MOA or a little less "out of the box", with handloads.

The .308 has never had a factory round chambered in it to date. 

 

I don't consider tuning a factory trigger a big upgrade, koshkin. 

The trigger job and the skim bedding only enhanced it. Actually, the bedding never changed accuracy.

The trigger job surely did help it out. I agree the factory trigger setting was heavy.

 

I know your a Savage guy. They too are lethally accurate out the box....typically.

 

I think some of rifles of all brands that get wrote off as inaccurate, might have not gotten fair shake at the shooting bench.

That's all I'm saying.   

 

I guess we (and the original poster) need to decide what "accuracy" is.

Maybe MOA accuracy out of a factory stick is not accurate enough for him.  

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2006 at 17:20
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koshkin,  have a tremendous respect for your knowledge and experience with optics, however, I have to strongly disagree with your comment regarding Remington's. Up until 5 years ago or so, practically every noted riflesmith built accuracy rigs on the 700 action. Their triggers remain one of the very best available on a factory rifle. It takes a good gunsmith about 30 minutes tops to get them to break like glass. Remington barrels have earned a reputation for being one of the most accurate out of the box tubes as well. For example, take a look at the Hill Country Rifles "Harvester" package. It utilizes a 700 action, barrel and trigger. Fact of the matter is that I am not aware of any factory available rifle that does not need trigger tuning out of the box. While Savage rifles are known to be very accurate as well, I just can't seem to warm-up to their very utilitarian look and feel. I would have to say that from my experience, I have yet to see a 700 that didn't shoot well right out of the box. I cannot say that for Ruger, Winchester, CZ, Browning or Weatherby.

If you find a 700 that doesn't shoot well it is probably in need of an exorcist, not a gunsmith.

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2006 at 17:27
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The best bolt rifle I have owned straight out of the box was a early 700 PSS made in 1984

that is 1/2moa with no accurizing needed. The worst rifle I have seen straight out of the box

was a 700 bdl 7mm mag with a offcentered barrel and could not properly feed rounds with

no better than 2.5 MOA it was bought brand new by a relitive in 1998. I am mixed with

factory 700's, my most respected gunsmith friend who does work for law inforcement has

stated a decline in quality over the years from remmington and I have seen similar examples

that makes me a believer in his words. I build my own now and would only recommend a rifle

out of remmingtons custom shop, I still hear enough good things about those rifles. I am a big

700 action fan.

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2006 at 17:57
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Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

If you find a 700 that doesn't shoot well it is probably in need of an exorcist, not a gunsmith.

 

Your on a roll in this thread, Roy!!

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2006 at 18:06
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As I said above: They can be made to shoot well for not a lot of money.

If it needs a trigger job and bedding, than it is not "out of the box".  I only have two modern bolt action rifles left (had a few more here and there): Savage and Tikka.  Both shot great out of the box and with factory ammo (but better with handloads).  No trigger work and no bedding.

Did I ever say that they do not make great actions for custom rifles? or can not be made to shoot well?

Remmy out of the box triggers are heavy and need work.  The couple that I played with needed to have barrels free-floated as well.

While I freely admit Roy has more expertise here than I do, I have yet to shoot a Remington that did not need any work to shoot well.

Everyone's mileage is different, but there sure are a lot of take-off Remington barrels out there that people replaced pretty quickly.

ILya




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Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

If it needs a trigger job and bedding, than it is not "out of the box". 

 

 

Would you concur that MOA accuracy BEFORE the trigger was touched or the bedding was installed is acceptible??

Whats your Savage shoot?? 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2006 at 19:01
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Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

If it needs a trigger job and bedding, than it is not "out of the box". 

 

 

Would you concur that MOA accuracy BEFORE the trigger was touched or the bedding was installed is acceptible??

Whats your Savage shoot?? 



MOA? That is definitely acceptable.

The limitation with the Savage is the shooter, but it puts factory loads between 0.5MOA and 1MOA depending on the brand of ammo.

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2006 at 19:19
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The reason there are so many take-off's has very little, if not nothing to do with them not being accurate. I believe that the 700 is the best selling rifle of all time, if not, it is certainly the best selling bolt action rifle. It is the fact that so many are the basis of a custom rig that the barrels are often scrapped. Probably more, way more folks buy these take-off's from gunsmiths and screw them back onto their rifles cause they want a different caliber or contour than what they have presently. It is rare to see this being done with other makes. Many of these barrels are replaced having never seen a bullet down their barrel.

 

   Yes, the trigger on a 700 is usually heavy out of the box, but that's not because they suck. It is the result of Remington bowing to legal issues from POS lawyers. I stated that I have rarely seen/felt a good factory trigger on any production grade rifle. Kimber is the closest exception to this I can think of offhand, but for a grand they should be good to go.

 

   Yes, lots of people free float the barrels on their 700's, however, it is not a requirement. I will still say that a bone stock 700 will shoot as good as any other production rifle right from the box and out shoot most others. I only referenced the custom rifle issue as a point of fact that no other rifle is even considered for the basis of an accurate rig. It sure as hell not a Savage or Tikka. I guess my point is that from the box, the Remington 700 absolutely needs to be adjusted to start shooting any kind of meaningful groups. I'm sure that many folks would place this requirement as a flaw. Having adjusted these triggers myself, I never really never considered it to be a big deal. Probably not the average guy's view of fun things to do with your spare time. I don't have any firsthand experience with the Tikka's, but I do know that they to have a great reputation for accuracy as do the Savage's. In fact, the Savage accu-trigger is probably one of the best factory units available.

 

  

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While I sympathize with Remington's lawyer issues, my Tikka came with a trigger that did not need adjustment.  My Savage has Accutrigger and I am very happy with it.

As for Remington 700 being the preferred action for cusom gunsmiths, while I could certainly be wrong, I suspect that is more of an image thing than anything else.  Any decent action can be made to shoot very well with proper attention be it Rem700, Savage 110, Howa, Mause, Tikka, Sako, etc.

Remington has been around long enough and was produced in sufficient quantities to be very available.

A prety good comparison here would be Leupold scopes.  A bunch of competitors and police snipers have Leupold scopes.  Does that mean that Leupold is the best scope in the world? or does it mean that it has an adequate image and good marketing?

ILya
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You mean to tell me that Leupold scopes are not the brightest scopes made. I hear that they are consistently brighter and sharper that Swaro and Zeiss, proven in laboratory tests no less. They are America's optics authority. If you believe that, I have a suspension bridge for sale in the Everglades.

 

     Regarding the 700's custom acclaim, lots of factor's in the mix. It has one of the fastest lock times, extremely consistent regarding tolerances, cylindrical receiver (easier to bed), strong design, great trigger and very easy to set up in a lathe. When I had my Ackley built, I asked Jack Sutton (Hart Barrels) why the Remy was most preferred. He told me that they need the least amount of work to make them shoot 1/2 moa and were simple to bed correctly. Most of the SWAT and ERT guys I have spoke with and shot with have found them to be the most accurate, reliable and least expensive to work with which is probably the case with their choice of Leupold scopes (reliable and inexpensive). It just CAN'T be because of their glass quality, and accuracy of their adjustments. Leupolds have all the familiar symptoms of a tactical scope, until you look through them. I am in 110% agreement with you on that one. If it were not for the work of their marketing folks, Leupolds would be used in the same breath as Millett and Barska.

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My favoriote afordable current out of the box rifles are the Savage, Tikka, and the FN Herstal SPR.

The 700 action like Roy said has exeptional tolerances and is the best in my opinion for gunsmithing

and after market parts. leupold scopes are good and very reliable but very overpriced for the glass quality.

Dollar for dollar and to get the job done straight out of the box the savage is hard to beat and provides a

exeptional rifle to a shooter on a budget. If the budget permits check out the FN hertal SPR it is a

exeptional performer in every way for the money if you do not have special custom needs. Great posts

from all of you.

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Boys Boys Boys.......... lots of testosterone......... Koshkin, if Savages are so much better than Remingtons....... how do they keep them on the shelves?  I'm a huge Savage fan......I've got 10 so far......... but you make them out to be "custom" quality.  If that were true, it would be well known and the bargin of the century!  I have one 700 BDL and love the way it fits and feels.  My latest Savage is a 11FL....its my kids gun actually..... and I absolutely love that Accu-trigger and I sure wish the 700 had one.  Bottom line....... they're both pretty good rifles.
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Everyone shoots better when they like the gun they are shooting.  No witchcraft involved.  Just the power of positive thinking.  The reverse is also true.  If you don't like the gun, you probably won't shoot up to its potential.

 

A lot of accuracy has to do with the shooter (the "nut behind the bolt").  A lot more comes from finding the loads that the rifle really  likes.   My Remington rifles have done fine right out of the box.

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Hello Tip69

 

I would consider the Savage 14 and 114 custom quality, every one that I have shot and seen has been sub MOA,

that is custom quality for a hunting rifle in my book. As far as the 10 and 110 the FN Hertal has the advantage for

tactical rifles OOTB. A 700 could be made to shoot better or equal in the FN's case with not alot of effort and provide

special features preffered by the shooter  but ounce again a gunsmith is required. IMO it comes down to what the

shooter wants and preferrs out of his rifles and how much he is willing to spend to be satisfied.

 

 

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/17/2006 at 21:54
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If my posts appeared to be lacking respect, I can tell you that it is certainly not the case. I have a tremendous amount of respect for koshkin. I have learned more from koshkin about optics than I could have ever learned from research. I have never presented a question to koshkin that I did not get a well informed and highly intelligent responce to. He is my go-to man. We have a little inside joke going with regard to Leupold scopes. I hope that nobody will misunderstand my intent. The point that koshkin made regarding Remington triggers "out of the box" is 100% correct. From an accuracy standpoint, you would be hard pressed to get a considerably more accurate rifle than a Savage or Tikka out of the box.
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