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good glass vs. magnification

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 15:26
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I have heard many times that good glass trumps magnification every time.

I can't see .223 bullet holes at 100 yards with my 3-9x40 Leupold VX-1, which is not in the "good glass" category. If good glass really does trump magnification, does this mean -- theoretically -- that a 3-9x40 scope with good enough glass exists that will let me see those .223 holes?

If all other factors remain the same, how much better than a VX-1 would the glass have to be? Bushnell Elite 4200? Better yet?

I realize that this is something I'm ultimately going to have to work out for myself, but I would appreciate your thoughts/experience.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 16:46
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Originally posted by onfinal onfinal wrote:

I have heard many times that good glass trumps magnification every time.

I can't see .223 bullet holes at 100 yards with my 3-9x40 Leupold VX-1, which is not in the "good glass" category. If good glass really does trump magnification, does this mean -- theoretically -- that a 3-9x40 scope with good enough glass exists that will let me see those .223 holes?

If all other factors remain the same, how much better than a VX-1 would the glass have to be? Bushnell Elite 4200? Better yet?

I realize that this is something I'm ultimately going to have to work out for myself, but I would appreciate your thoughts/experience.
 
Yes, you will have to work it out for yourself.  Fortunately, you likely won't have to spend much more than you did for the VX-1 to do it:  Leupold gets awfully good $ for their products.
 
I'd suggest you shoot up a target with your .223, then drive to the optics store, and park 100 yards away from the entrance.  Put your target on that part of the car that faces the front door of the place.  Pick 2 or 3 scopes you like, then have the sales person bring them outside with you, & look at your target.  Voila - Question Answered!
 
If you'll be hunting with this scope, it would be even better to do this at sundown, to see which scopes are best in low light.
 
FC
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 17:01
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 I can easily see .224 bullet holes at two hundred yards with an IOR 2.5-10X42, even in very late afternoon light, if that tells you anything. The guys at the range didn't believe me until I called their shots correctly, and they walked downrange to verify...

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 17:02
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Part of it also depends on your eyes.

I can comfortably see 22cal bullet holes at 100 yards with top notch 3-9x42 scopes like the variable SS 3-9x42.

That having been said, it also depends on which target type you use.  It is hard to see in the black and easier to see in the white (and easiest with "Shoot-N-See" targets).

ILya
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 17:06
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I'm not sure even really good glass will still let you see .22 size holes at 100 yds!  Although it might depend a little on the type of "target" you use.  A shoot and see type might work ok where as a plain jane black one might not.... you still might need something with higher power!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 19:17
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Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

I'm not sure even really good glass will still let you see .22 size holes at 100 yds!  
 
 
 You're kidding, right?
 
Decent glass will make it easy at 9X or higher, at least for anyone with normal vision.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 19:24
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You can see the ragged edges of the holes at 100 yards with a Zeiss Conquest 3x9x50.
 
Tell you a story.  Went to the range one day with a vendor who had just purchased a 7 mag Vanguard and had a 3.5x10x50 VXIII or VariXIII or one of those and he would shoot and then go back to use the range spotting scope.  After a while I started calling out his shots for him and he asked how can you see that?  I just picked up my gun and set it down on his bags and let him look through it.  He was amazed.  He then said that he wished he could afford a big-buck scope like a Zeiss and when I told him he could get one for around $400.00 (this was a couple of years ago) his jaw literally dropped.
 
I then took his scope and set it down and tried to adjust it.  Essentially the only adjustment was the ocular reticle adjustment which was a little off but that scope was fuzzy as hell.
 
The next day he had ordered the same scope I had, a 3x9x50 Zeiss Conquest.
 
I shoot a lot at 300 yards and don't carry my spotting scope anymore.  I have a 4.5x14x44 Conquest, a Burris Black Diamond 4x16x50 and a couple of Kahles MZ 4x12x52's.  The 4x16x50 Burris is on a 22-250.  After shooting with the 22-250 I can not see the bullet holes with the Burris or the Kahles but I clearly can see the holes even in white paper with the Zeiss Conquest.
 
Yes, glass does make a difference.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 19:24
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Well........ maybe I haven't looked thru "good" glass.  I don't think I've used my Kahles to look for small holes - and maybe Kahles isn't good enough?  Maybe I'm not using the right target either.... what kind of target are you talking about Ronk, does that matter?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 19:47
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Well, I generally shoot at home-made off-white drafting paper targets. Where I shoot, the holes show very dark or black most of the time.
 I don't like "busy" targets with rings and circles and diamonds all over them, either.
Plain flat paper with a single one-inch (?) aiming box in gray crayon works best for me.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 19:51
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sounds like I need different targets.....  How big are your targets?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 20:02
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They're freakin' huge.
 
 
That whole "Aim small, miss small " thing is just too difficult!  
 
   Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 20:11
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When at a public gun range I take the white paper with black circle target they give me, flip it around and paste a couple of orange circles on the plain white side. At camp, what ever I have, paper, piece of card board, etc., with the same orange circle(s). For me, it's much easier to see than holes in a black target circle.




Edited by mike650 - September/25/2009 at 20:17
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 20:11
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Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 

They're freakin' huge.
 
 
That whole "Aim small, miss small " thing is just too difficult!  
 
   Big Grin


Roll on Floor Laughing
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 23:21
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Maybe I should rename these targets "Leopold Targets"!
 
 
Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/25/2009 at 23:55
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That'll work!!!  Big Grin
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 07:16
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Nice group, Bob!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 08:09
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Originally posted by RONK RONK wrote:

 

They're freakin' huge.
 
 
That whole "Aim small, miss small " thing is just too difficult!  
 
   Big Grin


I still believe in "Aim small, miss small"
but this target is easy to see bullet hole in.

http://www.mytargets.com/target102%20grid%20square%20center.pdf

Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 08:31
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Being frugal (cheap) I usually print out targets at work on a laserjet color printer.  I used to use only standard black on white.  I then tried to print a target that was red on white.  I accidently sent it to the wrong laser jet print (black only).  Realising this I printed more in red.   Being frugal I kept both and when I used them I found it much easier to see my 223 holes. The black version actuall printed in grayscale of about 60% intensity.  It was much easier to discern 223 holes in this than in a completely black dot.  The red dot was the easiest to discern of all. 
 
I no longer use solid black bulleye targets.  Grey scale or red for me!
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 16:26
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i use plain white computer paper with those orange round circles with a cross hair like in your scope, they come in 1,2,3 in circles. i can see way better with these.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 17:21
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The answer to your question is Yes,Yes,Yes. Quality glass makes all the difference. It especially makes the most important difference right a dark when that trophy steps out. I know from experience. Good luck and God bless.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 17:45
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 I don't like very brightly-colored targets, especially bright orange ones when I'm trying to shoot very tight groups. They tend to "flare" on me, drawing my eye away from the intersection of the crosshairs. Dull reds aren't so bad, but I like gray best, for that and for the reason Budperm noted.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 18:17
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Cool, I'll have to try the gray. I haven't experimented with different colors but I do know that I don't like "plain Jayne" black on traditional paper targets. I don't get the flare using orange but it sounds like I'm using a lot smaller circles than you Ron. Wink 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 18:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 18:29
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Thanks for all the input. Very helpful and I appreciate it, but leads to one more question: does a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 qualify as "good glass" or is it not there yet?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/26/2009 at 18:44
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Originally posted by onfinal onfinal wrote:

Thanks for all the input. Very helpful and I appreciate it, but leads to one more question: does a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 qualify as "good glass" or is it not there yet?


onfinal, you would not be disappointed with a Zeiss Conquest as it will run circles around your Leupold VX-1. Thunbs Up
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