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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 13:24
supertool73 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I have been taught to use the modified weaver stance and the push pull technique. 
 
This works for range fighting with paper. Whatever gun is carried you need to practice from one hand, point shooting at close range, sitting, weak hand, etc, etc. One thing is for certain, when trouble comes it will not be at our convenience.
 
 


Agreed, but basics have to come first.  The fact is most folks are never going to learn proper tactics and movement.  They will take a CCW class and spend some time in lectures and a couple hours on the range and think they are ready, but they don't know what they don't know.  And practicing all that advanced stuff without having a foundation of proper weapon handling and weapon manipulations it is going to do more bad than good.  A person needs to learn how to shoot and shoot properly and then get some instruction on tactics and advanced weapon skills.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 13:34
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I have no problems with basics and everyone should get all the training they can. Beyond this you need to learn to fire from different positions.

I've been up close and personal to two different shootings involving pistolero perps. No one had time to react and certainly no time to take a two handed grip. It just doesn't happen. If you're in a fair gunfight something is very wrong.
Train, train, train all one can. Like I said, an assault is never at our convenience. Condition yellow or whatever, we just never know.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 14:01
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You got that right.  I have taken a few advanced practical rifle and pistol classes and we spend a good amount of time with force on force training and advanced weapon techniques.  Support hand, firing hand, malfunction clearances; single handed, support and fire side, transitions to backup weapons, upside down on our backs, side, rolling, over obstacles, under obstacles, through obstacles.  Out of cars, under cars, multiple enemies, ground fighting, so on and so on.   We spent time learning the affects on the POI of shooting your guns upside down and on your sides.  We fought and fired from close contact, from pushing the guy away and gaining distance with your support hand while presenting and firing.  Shooting on the move, shooting while running, shooting moving target while moving.  Fighting with teams, proper movement and communication, shooting stacked right over top of each other 3 high.  Amazing the amount of firepower that provides. Big%20Smile  Night shooting, night tactics, proper use of a flashlight, target identification.  Shoot no shoot scenarios.
When you begin fighting real people especially experienced people it is unbelievable how quick it happens and how quick you can be dead.  It goes to show how important movement tactics and improvised shooting positions are.  So I am not arguing with you there at all.  I think everyone should train at least 50 to 100 hours of formal training every year.  I try to do 200+ every year.  I want to be ready if it happens to me.

And to Longhunters comment.  I agree reliability is key, that is why I use a Glock and recommend them to everyone no matter what skill lever they are at.  An XD or an M&P are probably just as good but I don't care for the trigger resets and feel it is a weakness in the weapon design.  But that is just me.
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i dont know jack about self defense shooting but to me it seems like hunting in a way, if you place your shot right the first time you shouldnt need to worry about the trigger reset, one shot one kill
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It would be a fool to assume the opponent wasn't a least as good as oneself, the probablity of winning is then only 33%
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 14:13
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im talking about element of surprise here, home invasion type scenerio, you have home field advantage and the element of surprise, not an attack in a dark alley type of ordeal
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 14:17
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is the glock 31 worth a hoot, i dont have any pistols and have been looking at the 31 as well as the h&k usp and also the springfield xd i prefer the .357 sig but a 45 would be ok too
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 14:18
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Chances of a one shot one kill with a hundgun is unlikely.  Most people survive handgun wounds.  Most schools teach at the bare minimum a controlled pair to the thoracic cavity with a cranial ocular cavity follow up shot if that does not work.  I say hammer them to the ground and keep firing until all movement ceases. 

Then when the cops ask you why you shot him 44 times you can say that is all the bullets I had on me. Smile

Now if your home defense weapon is a shotgun, then the one shot one kill thing might workout. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 14:22
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Push pull, both thumbs forward works for me.  Also, strong arm almost straight.
I could have sworn the slide on a GAP is slightly larger than the frame/grip with a little overhang, ie. a 45 slide on a 40 frame. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 14:23
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well my thoughts are a scatter gun is great but its hard to use in close quarters head shot should end the situation quickly, but its like shooting and animal in the head its the body part that moves the most and in unpredictable ways. i find this type of stuff intresting, not that its likely to happen to me where i am, but in other areas it should almost be taught in the school systems.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 14:25
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A 31 is actually a great choice.  The more velocity you can get out of a round the better, because at a certain point it will do damage to the body called hydrostatic shock.  It is caused by the high velocity of the round and cause all the fluids in that area to explode inside the body.  That is why a little tiny .223 rounds will do significantly more damage than a .45 auto round.  Most pistol rounds are not fast enough to do that, but the .357 sig is approaching that speed.  The down side to a high velocity cartridge like the .357 sig is the possibility of over penetration.  Especially in your home when you have loved ones in other rooms.  That is what a .223 or a shotgun with birdshot is the best home defense round.  A .223 is made to tumble and fragment so it stays in the body and does not penetrate walls very well.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 14:31
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i wouldnt talk about hydro shock to loud some members here dont think it exsists, we have had this talk when it comes to barnes tsx bullets in rifles. i like the .357 sig because its fast and i also like it because it fits my mo i like odd ball stuff other than my 10/22 and my 22-250 all my other guns are odd ball. hmm maybe i should get a permit to purchase from the county sheriffs office and fill it out and pay my money for the background check and get the damn permit and go buy a pistol, i dont have any worries of self defense, but i wouldnt mind having a pistol for plinking around with
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 14:34
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

well my thoughts are a scatter gun is great but its hard to use in close quarters head shot should end the situation quickly, but its like shooting and animal in the head its the body part that moves the most and in unpredictable ways. i find this type of stuff intresting, not that its likely to happen to me where i am, but in other areas it should almost be taught in the school systems.


With a longgun though you can also use it as a great contact weapon is close quarters.  Having ahold of the grip and forend with a quick well balanced jab of the end of the barrel to the sternum of your bad guy it going to do some serious damage.  If you do that 2 or 3 times really fast you have most likely defeated the guy without having to shoot him. 

If you shoot someone in the head its over.  That is if you shoot them in the eyeball nose region.  Even if they have a weapon in their hand they are not going to start firing rounds from convulsions.  That has been studied and I have never been able to find any evidence of that happening.  I had the same concern as well at first. 
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 14:39
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im not weapons trained, i got my black belt in the american taekwondo asso. so i can use my hands and feet very well, but yeah i hear you gotta be ready to improvise.
i just did some ballistic checks on federals ammo page and the .357sig with a 125gr bullet is almost a dead ringer for a 150gr .357 mag

Edited by pyro6999 - January/04/2008 at 14:40
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 14:46
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Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i wouldnt talk about hydro shock to loud some members here dont think it exsists, we have had this talk when it comes to barnes tsx bullets in rifles.


Thats interesting.  I have shot a deer with my 150 grain 7mm and the internal damage is unbelievable.  Then I have shot one with at 158 grain .357 magnum round and it put about a .7 inch wound channel in it.


Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 14:54
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they bring out the internet links where somebody supposedly proves that hydro shock doesnt exsist which i know it does exsist just wait if the right cat comes along he will howl.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 15:01
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if your not reloading in large amts. perhaps a 9mm is a better choice. fairly cheap easily found. 357 sig is hard to reload for and good loads are hard to find. Personally its all shot place ment and I'll take a major 200 gr. hard cast semi-wadcutter up against anything in the same class of defence handgun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 15:10
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but isnt the 9mm terrible for accuracy?
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 15:15
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.357 sig brass isnt very expensive $0.249 a piece thats not bad
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 15:23
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Nah, a 9 will shoot as good as you and the gun.   Have you ever heard of Rudy Waldinger?  He is a world glass revolver shooter, up there with Jerry Miceluk.  But anyway I have taken a few classes from him and he is a Glock 9mm fanatic.  I seen him make 5 head shots from 50 yards in about a 4 or 5 inch group with his Glock 17.  So they shoot okay.

The problem with reloading a .357 sig is if you don't do it just right the bullets will fall into the brass.  I have a buddy who reloads for a living on huge scale and he hates them because he says have of them the have to pull and redo.  You don't have much area for neck tension and it causes problems.

For a defensive weapon you would be better off with factory anyway.  Less liability issues.  But that is probably not your purpose.  So reloading them is okay but it just sounds much more difficult than a straight walled pistol case.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 15:26
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i guess thats a thought course i dont think i would reload pistol rounds any ways i wouldnt be shooting that much plus i am impressed with the performance, everybody has a 9mm
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 15:39
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You could always go with the 10mm.  Very fast, bigger bullet, and a straight walled case.  They have the new model 20 SF that has a smaller grip than the old models.  Pretty sweet gun.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 15:44
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.357 out preforms the 10mm as well, i looked into it also
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 16:03
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in hanguns the power factor is set, it's like an equal lateral triange, power , speed, accuracy, If a gun has more power the configuration of the gun must be such that it allows the shooter both a level of accuracy and speed to make up for the "over power" of the particular cartridge, if not the case everyone should just shoot a 454 casuall.
125 gr lead "cowboy bullets" work best for practice ammo in reloading the 357 as any bullet will have a total over all length to long when using normal 9 mm  bullet, which cannot be used for the 357, the cases also are just a bit longer than a necked down 40 - so 40 s& w cannot be used. This severly limits the reloads available for self defence, if one goes that route. Aslo RCBS dies for 357 sig will work and give enough tension to hold the bullet, also a 375 cut off die can be used in the last stage to "SWage" the neck to the bullet and provide proper over all dimension.
any good 1911 45 acp can easily be loaded to any ballistic level of a 10, but just not commerically, This puts the load at about 23,000 to 24000 psi, and a power factor of 230-240 or a 185 gr in above the 1200 fps class.
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)     Back to Top Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/04/2008 at 16:03
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Dude you will shoot SO MUCH MORE with a pistol it ain't funny. 500 rounds on a Saturday is common.  Basic and cheap are must have.  If you are not being supplied by the tax payer don't even think about the .357 Sig.  The .38 super is more common brass wise.  Try walking in and paying cash for a case of either.
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