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cheaptrick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2014 at 09:10
Originally posted by 3_tens 3_tens wrote:

Mark Did you ever find one of the grip&pull tools you posted last year? That looked like the quickest tool ever.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQPsmgz_HAQ

No, I never did. Yeah that is cool.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2014 at 09:12
Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

To my knowledge, a Redding Body Die is the ONLY die that will resize a loaded round.

The body die does not size the neck, only the case body and shoulder, and it does not have a depriming rod. 

Any full length die that normally re-expands the neck by an expander ball should resize the neck also and so a loaded round should not fit up into the neck sizing forcing cone up in the die.  If a full length die did not size the neck down (which won't work on a loaded round), then the expander would not need to re-expand and the neck should not hold a bullet.



I just did two more with a RCBS small base FLS die, Bob. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2014 at 09:45
Although it is a bit spooky to run live rounds into a sizing die, I've used the body die sakomato mentioned a few times on live rounds with success. As he said, a body die has no expander button or decapping pin, and doesn't touch the neck at all. It only sizes the body and shoulder. Depending on your chamber dimensions, you have to be careful not to move the shoulder back too far, as you can create excess headspace and the round will move forward too much in the chamber during firing pin strike, causing your rifle to go "click" instead of "boom."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2014 at 13:06
Originally posted by cheaptrick cheaptrick wrote:

Originally posted by sakomato sakomato wrote:

To my knowledge, a Redding Body Die is the ONLY die that will resize a loaded round.

The body die does not size the neck, only the case body and shoulder, and it does not have a depriming rod. 

Any full length die that normally re-expands the neck by an expander ball should resize the neck also and so a loaded round should not fit up into the neck sizing forcing cone up in the die.  If a full length die did not size the neck down (which won't work on a loaded round), then the expander would not need to re-expand and the neck should not hold a bullet.



I just did two more with a RCBS small base FLS die, Bob. 

It's a miracle!!!  Shall we call it immaculate sizing?  Big Grin

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/597261/rcbs-small-base-sizer-die-308-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Question, does the die size the neck down during regular sizing and then the expander re-expands so the neck will hold the bullet?  That would mean the die is trying to size the neck down well below caliber.

I assume you removed the decapping/expander rod since the loads in question had a bullet in the neck.  So the interior of the die at the neck should be squeezing the neck down, probably a minimum of .004" before the expander (usually .002" to .003" below caliber) comes back through.

So you are compressing the neck with the bullet in it down a minimum of .003"?  I am amazed!  Didn't think it could be done!  Learned something  Shocked

Did it do any damage to the bullet and what happens when the compressed bullet is going down the barrel at a smaller diameter?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2014 at 14:28
That's the one I have, Bob.  

I did remove the "guts", but I haven't used that dies expander ball or decapping pin in years. (I thought the expander ball was causing run out.) 
So to address your question, I'd wager that I the rounds I did today were intially FLS'd without the expander ball and the primer was knocked out with a Lee Decapping Die.  

I'm going to do some more checking on neck tension and run out. I tried a total of 3 rounds today and those rounds were in my "spotters". I do know that the OAL length did not change. As far as neck tension, I can't imagine it would matter much. About like a factory crimp, I would think. 

I've long since shot the rounds from the last time I "Immaculately Sized" them and I don't recall any difference in POI shift or anything like pressure issues, sticky bolts, etc. 

I'm fairly sure I've bumped some .223 Remington rounds too with Lee Deluxe FLS, but maybe not.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2014 at 15:58

I don't doubt you, just don't understand how it's possible and looking for a miscommunication or something

Don't want to hijack this thread but you just pulled a magic trick and I'm curious

It would be interesting to have 2 measurements

1. OD of the neck after sizing in the die without the expander, no bullet

2. OD of the neck after sizing with the bullet in

Say for example that the first measurement was .334" and the second measurement was .338".  Would mean you have .004" bullet grip and the bullet expanded your neck that .004".  Would also mean that the inside of the neck up inside the die was .334"

When you raise the loaded neck up into the die that .004" difference HAS TO go somewhere.

Does the bullet get squeezed down?

Does the brass get squeezed thinner (the brass would have to go somewhere)?

Does the steel die get expanded, wouldn't think so


Should not be possible


Something's going on here, I feel like I'm about to have an epiphany or brain fart  Whacko

Wish I had a FL die to try it, but all I use are Lee Collets with the Redding Body Dies


Oh just thought of this, pull a bullet from those you resized and measure the diameter, still .308"?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/01/2014 at 18:25
Roger, Bob. I'll check it all out tomorrow and advise. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2014 at 09:26
I'm a little under the weather today, Bob but have a little bit of info for you. More later. 

I ran two rounds through a "gutted" RCBS S/B .308 die again, even after I did it yesterday. 

I lubed the entire rounds, bullet and all. I ran them through the die and knocked them out with the hammer. (I forgot to measure the outside diameter before knocking them out, but I can later.)

1) LC brass measured .331 outside the empty case neck. PMC brass measured .330 outside empty case neck.     

2) Both 168gr Matchkings measured .304 where seated. So your right, there's the .004 difference. You really can't tell there's any deformation by looking. I'm going to mark these and shoot them later to see if there's any difference in POI or anything. Doubt it. 

I'm going to try it in my .223 next. I will neck size only an empty round from my bolt gun, seat a bullet, try to chamber it in my AR, (it won't), then run it through the FL die and see if it will chamber then. I'm pretty sure I've done it before and it worked. I want to try and simulate the OP's situation, as close as I can.      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2014 at 10:44

Thanks

Matchkings have a LOT of lead inside and a thin jacket so what is happening is that you are deforming the bullet.  The land diameter is typically .008" smaller than groove diameter which is typically the full caliber, in this case .308".  So the bullet will still engage the lands and spin although some slipping or skipping might be possible.

The main problem would be with sealing the bore to keep the gases and pressure behind the bullet.  Perhaps the bullet jacket that is displaced by the lands will fill the groove and seal off the gases.  Shouldn't be a danger but velocity and accuracy should suffer.  Never know

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/376763/redding-small-base-body-die-223-remington?cm_vc=ProductFinding

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/378388/redding-small-base-body-die-308-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2014 at 11:28
Like I stated earlier, I've already sent those rounds that I did awhile back down range, but I don't recall any problems or accuracy issues, but your comments are noted and appreciated.

The bullets did knock out normally. I didn't notice them being tighter, or looser than any other ones I've "knocked". 

I'll do a little more testing and report. Not feeling well today, so I'm done for now. I'm guessing a guy could run them through a crimp die to seal them back up, but now were getting into doing more "work".

Moral of the story is, check your brass by chambering it BEFORE you start throwing the powder in them and running off half cocked. 
Measure TWICE, cut once. Smoking 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sakomato Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2014 at 14:35

Hope you get to feeling better


I was talking about the bullet sealing in the barrel after firing.  I'm sure you would have a good seal between the case neck and the bullet and a lot of bullet grip.

Bullets are meant to be TIGHT going down the barrel.  An undersized bullet would not seal as well.  A .308 bullet is meant to be fired in a barrel with a .308" groove diameter.  A .304" bullet would not be good.

I think we're through beating this dead horse


Collet bullet puller or the new Grip-N-Pull, hammer sucks


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