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Energy Dumping

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Bigdaddy0381 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 15:08
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

17000 math geeks in one place, scary--- inelastic collision physics-- two pool balls are elastic,  conservation of mass and energy met,  bullet and animal inelastic, mass and energy loss have to showup somewhere-- image a cue ball and the Pillsbury dough boy.
 
yeah I'm located at the Georgia Institute Of technology. geek central
 
yeah I just keep hearing about energy dumped into a deer.i was just trying to figuer out out it is dumped into it with a pass thru is all nothing to major today.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 15:24

if the collision is elastic, the two objects will rebound from the collision with no deformation in either, pool and particle physics, as the materials start to differ, the collision becomes more inelastic, heat,deformation, a molecular rearangement, and velocity must still be algebra summable

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 15:29
dale:wtf did you just say?? you lost me after if the collision is elastic,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 15:31
Sometimes Dale just scares me.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 15:32
I think this section of the piece does a good job of explaining why speed itself (and the resulting "shock waves") is not what causes all the trauma in a gunshot wound, but rather the effects speed has on KE and momentum and the resulting behavior of the projectile. 
 
A Failed Theory

The theory of hydrostatic shock has been conclusively disproven. The claim that tissue behaves like water is obviously false. Water is an incompressible fluid, while tissue is a compressible solid. Tissue has memory and will return to its original shape if stretched, and can dissipate energy as it stretches. What's more, even if tissue did behave like water, the speed of sound in water is approximately 1500 m/s, but no commonly used rifle bullet exceeds 1300 m/s.

Tissue does behave similarly enough to water that a sonic pressure wave can be created by a bullet impact, generating pressures in excess of 100 atmospheres. However, a device known as the lithotriptor, commonly used to break up kidney stones, produces sonic pressure waves of approximately 5 times the amplitude of those caused by bullets. Up to 2000 such pressure waves are used in a single treatment session, with no damage to soft tissues whatsoever.(3)

From a study produced by the FBI, "Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness"

The reason is that most tissue in the human target is elastic in nature. Muscle, blood vessels, lung, bowels, all are capable of substantial stretching with minimal damage. Studies have shown that the outward velocity of the tissues in which the temporary cavity forms is no more than one tenth of the velocity of the projectile. This is well within the elasticity limits of tissue such as muscle, blood vessels, and lungs, Only inelastic tissue like liver, or the extremely fragile tissues of the brain, would show significant damage due to temporary cavitation.(4)

Further, one study (5) showed that projectiles which strike above the speed of sound in water do not produce any "extra" trauma which could not be explained by the increase in drag as velocity increases.
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 15:35
Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

Sometimes Dale just scares me.....
i like to talk to dale because he is so damn smart! but sometimes to understand dale you gotta read it 3 times cause he so smart, the man is working towards cold fushion i hope!
They call me "Boots"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CowboyBill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 15:44
Dale Clifford, for head of the Department of Energy, in the next administration.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 15:46
doesnt pay enough remember he didnt want to be president either!!
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 16:01
like the DOE idea, would get to play with all their guns,--- then-- there is that concept of being able to use lethal force on anything not authorized in something like a 1/4 perimeter of nuclear sites.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CowboyBill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 16:05
We have our man!!!!! He's got his priorities in order too..........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 16:15

its not hard keeping track of were the energy goes, the big problem is that it changes with every shot.

just trying to predict the total amt. of ke needed to put something down is difficult, let alone 1/8 to tissue damage, 1/4 to nerve damage etc. as an example.
gets into a previous post in ot on what is overkill
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graysteel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 17:00
RifleDude,

It is true that rifles projectiles do not generally travel at the speed of sound in water, but the sonic velocity is not the determining factor for wounding. This is where the author of the text makes a small misstep.

Fluids (both compressible and non compressible) can transport energy at frequencies aside from their sonic velocity. To continue with the pool ball analogy, it is a bit like the initial  break. Imagine the tissue is the pool balls and each ball is connected to the next with rubberbands.  If you hit them only moderately hard they will bounce around but return to their initial configuration. If you hit them harder the bands will break and they will not return to their initial configuration.

This is where the commonly referenced 2000 FPS comes in. It just so happens that when struck at a velocity of that around that speed many tissues do not have the structural integrity to stay together. It really varies quite a lot depending on the tissue in question, which is why I said earlier that shot placement affects more than the obvious.

A paintball, which typically travels about 300 fps, will burst surface capillaries and leave a funny looking bruise. What has happened is mainly two things, first there is a crush wound directly under the ball where one 'layer' of tissue was pushed into another. Secondly there is shearing as the center of the circle is pushed rapidly down. Inertia keeps the surrounding skin in place, while the the area where the ball is striking is pressed down. While skin is extremely elastic and doesn't rip, the thin blood vessels are not as elastic and tend to part. (I didn't explain that very well) Think threads inside a sheet of rubber.. you can push in the middle and stretch the rubber but some of the threads are going to break.

The key here is that this is happen at a relatively low energy level. Once you get up to the several thousand feet per second level the effects are more dramatic.  Again, I fall back to my position the key is what specific tissue the round passes through.

The article also mentions:

This is well within the elasticity limits of tissue such as muscle, blood vessels, and lungs, Only inelastic tissue like liver, or the extremely fragile tissues of the brain, would show significant damage due to temporary cavitation.(4)

Again, this acknowledges the differences in tissue.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 17:05
holy sh*t where was this guy when i was in high school and college? i can feel myself getting smarter because i understand it, pretty soon im going to be talking like dale and then what?
They call me "Boots"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 17:39
trying to develop small scale monopoles for national defense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 18:58
cold fushion dale figure it out the last guy at the u of u that did it got jerked around pretty good by the feds
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 19:22
The guy who tried cold fusion had some flaked out equiptment that was not calibrated...  I worked where he gave his first talk and we ran all the test too.  Our stuff was calibrated! My best guess was he had a flaked out ballist or some other possable source for stray emp, mixed with some flaked out grounds, and it showed up on his dector.  We asked when his stuff was cal-ed last and got no answer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 19:28
The thing that this does not address is the nervous system, it's electrochemical.  A lot of the so called "hydrostatic shock" is the electro chemical system reaction.  That is only starting to be understood.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 20:15
Forget the nervous system for now, though very important regarding the biophysical aspects of a kill.
Pressure wave theory is far from being proven. It is a known fact that high energy, low mass projectiles produce large temporary stretch cavities. These have not been proven to be the holy grail for pure energy disciples.  The permanent stretch cavity has been proven to be of paramount importance. Organs and other tissues are "elastic".  Therefore temporary cavities that return to the initial displacement of the initial wound channel are of the greatest concern.
Newton"s Laws certainly have their place and are a good basic guide line. These laws give us a purely physical representation of what happens in projectile dynamics.
We have to remain open to the fact that low mass high energy projectiles do not compare with high mass projectiles at similar energy levels. Besides, to consider relativity does not even count at these velocities.
I'll take big and fast over small and fast any day of the week.


Edited by tahqua - February/05/2008 at 20:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 20:23
this is so intresting to me you guys should go on a nation wide tour and give talks about it!
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2008 at 21:25
The .270 produces the largest permanent wound cavity of all!
Oh yeah, I forgot, the biggest energy dump of allWink
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