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Need reasonable price deer scope |
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Elmer Fudd
Optics GrassHopper Joined: October/27/2004 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Posted: October/27/2004 at 09:39 |
I have 2 hunting rifles I use for deer hunting. The first is a Remington 700P in .308 with Badger rings and a Leupold Vari-X 3 3.5-10x40 tactical scope that shoots 3/4in groups. I have compared my Leupold Vari-X 3 40mm to the cheap Bushnell Banner 50mm and the Bushnell is much brighter at dusk. I assume that a good part of the loose groups is the scope. Could I be wrong? The muzzle crown looks uniform and I cannot think of any other reason for the extreme variation. |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Would you define "reasonably priced"? Your definition may vary from someone else's.
Nikon makes excellent products, and I highly recommend the Monarch and Buckmaster. The Monarch would be more to my liking, and offer more in the low light shooting arena....
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Elmer Fudd
Optics GrassHopper Joined: October/27/2004 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Thanks for the welcome and advice. Reasonable in my case is $300-$350, which is about what the rifle cost. I have a real problem hunting with a 2.5 inch group size. I wounded a doe (very light blood trail, never found her) with this rifle last year with a 90 yard shot. The Monarch is out of my price range.
One question I have - does scope price correlate to how tight a shot group you can obtain with a given rifle? Do cheaper scopes have more "play" and "flex" so that the recoil forces cause the scope's point of aim to shift? Or does price mainly correlate to light transmission and focus? |
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ranburr
Optics Master Joined: May/16/2004 Status: Offline Points: 1082 |
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Price is a good indicator of quality where optics are concerned. You may also consider that the problem could be with your rifle. I like to bed, pillar and free float my rifles.
ranburr |
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mcfly
Optics GrassHopper Joined: October/23/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8 |
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Elmer Fudd, The nikon is a fine scope at a good price.It will do you proud.I,ve shot one on a 30-06 for over 10 years and it has never failed.It is a excellent scope for the money. |
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arro222
Optics GrassHopper Joined: October/01/2004 Status: Offline Points: 48 |
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My experience to poor grouping because of scope has more to do with variation of groups. Some would be very tight, others with the same combo and ammunition would be all over the place do to reticle shift now and again. Lay the Leupold scope on the Howa rings and button it all up. If you get the same groups then you know to check either the mounting, ammo, or sadly, the rifle.
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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No, the Monarchs NOT out of your price range, brother.
http://www.riflescopes.com/products/6520/nikon_monarch_3-9x4 0.htm
You can get change back!!!!! This scope is all the scope MOST hunters ever need....Including me!!!! |
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Elmer Fudd
Optics GrassHopper Joined: October/27/2004 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Cheaptrick, the problem I have is that the deer I see are always at dusk as the light really starts to fail. My 50mm objective cheap Bushnell gives a brighter picture at higher magnification as I try to pick out doe from young buck. My Leupold 40mm is simply not up to it. I doubt a 40mm Nikon is significantly better.
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redneckbmxer24
Optics Master Joined: June/02/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1055 |
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a 50mm objective WILL NOT transfer more light than a 40mm. it all has to do with the coating that are on it, and the monarcs, leupold VXII's and up, and zeiss conquest, and all will preform better in low light than your 50mm banner. i would keep the same rings/bases, and tighten the rear MOA adjustment on the base, becuase it may be a little loose. i would try shooting it liek that, and see what it does. just becuase the 700 PSS will make little tiny groups DOES NOT mean that your howa hunting rifle will, after all, thew PSS stands for police sharp shooter, and snipers all around the globe use them, and the howa is a el cheapo rifle, so it wont preform better than the PSS. also, try ,essing with different loads, if you load, and if you dont, pick up soem remington accu-tip ammo, and swift scirroco, and try it. it it STILL doesnt work, then switch scopes, and look at the burris FF2 3-9x40 with ballistic plex, and the free spotter for 197.95
cory |
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If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns, I'll be only one of millions!!!
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Shamus
Optics Apprentice Joined: September/19/2004 Status: Offline Points: 22 |
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A larger objective will give a better exit pupil at a given magnification - if low-light and moderate magnification is a concern, I'd pop for the extra diameter.
For high build quality, really good optics, and brightness in your price range I'd go with the Weaver Grand Slam 3.5-10x50 for $299 here - http://www.riflescopes.com/products/800474/weaver_grand_slam _3.5-10x50.htm
Now for a little more you can get a Bushnell Elite 4200 2.5-10x50 which I think is a better scope in many regards (rainguard, warranty, optics, zoom range), but the best price I've seen for them is still $380. And do keep in mind that www.riflescopes.com will meet or beat their competitor's prices so give them the opportunity to do so if you find a better deal out there. |
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redneckbmxer24
Optics Master Joined: June/02/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1055 |
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shamus, remember, your eye can only use a 7mm exit pupil, and anything else is overkill.
cory |
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If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns, I'll be only one of millions!!!
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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I agree totally with redneck on this one.
A scope is only as good as it's coatings/glass optically speaking. The best scopes I have ever owned have all had 40mm objectives. A S&B 3-12x42mm, a Zeiss Conquest 3.5-10x44mm and my beloved USO SN-3 with a 44mm obj.
I have used all these scopes in very low light situations, and they perform perfectly.
50mm objective hunting scopes are obsolete, IMHO.
If your budget will allow it, I would go with a 3-9 Conquest in lieu of the Monarch. But the Monarch will surprise you at the amount of scope it is, especially at low light.
Go to a store that has several different scopes, and look at them OUTDOORS at low light, and then compare. The only thing about the Monarch is, I 'd drop the AO. I hate an AO on a hunting scope, but that's me. This of course, only applies to scopes that have AO's. |
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Shamus
Optics Apprentice Joined: September/19/2004 Status: Offline Points: 22 |
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True, but E.Fudd specifically talked about higher magnification light transfer and the bigger objective would make that better for a given scope model. All things being equal (same scope just bigger objective) the larger objective buys you more magnification in low-light situations due to increased exit pupil.
Since exit pupil = ( objective lens diameter divided by magnification) at 7x zoom, a 40mm scope has an exit pupil of 5.71mm and a 50mm scope has an exit pupil of 7.14mm. Basically there is 25% more exit pupil in the 50mm scope and at the upper ranges it would matter.
This would be a noticable difference and means Elmer could use higher magnification in the last 20 minutes of prime time on distant targets. Edited by Shamus |
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redneckbmxer24
Optics Master Joined: June/02/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1055 |
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very true shamus.
cory |
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If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns, I'll be only one of millions!!!
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Elmer Fudd
Optics GrassHopper Joined: October/27/2004 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Based on your numbers Shamus, the 25% larger exit pupil would mean a 56% increase in the amount of light transmitted, in terms of the area of the exit pupil. This squares with what I see through the two scopes - the 50mm Bushnell Banner is much brighter at dusk than the much more expensive 40mm Leupold.
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Shamus
Optics Apprentice Joined: September/19/2004 Status: Offline Points: 22 |
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I bet the 50mm Weaver Grand Slam or Elite 4200 would really be excellent for your application. Their optics and coatings will be a few steps above the Bushnell too, yielding better contrast, clarity and brightness...
Bang for the buck has to be the Grand Slam - they are notoriously bright. I personally would go with the Elite 4200 due to the rainguard, warranty and maybe very slightly better optics.
The forgotten child that might really work well would be Bushnell 3200 Firefly 3-9x50. Optically it's a half-step down from the 4200 or the Slam, but you would get the Firefly reticle (glows for hours after you shine a flashlight on the reticle, no batteries) plus the great warranty, rainguard and a free gear bag from Bushnell for between $220-280 depending on current deals. Edited by Shamus |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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I understand the math. Shamus post say's it all. He's right. I'm willing to be corrected....
But, I can't fathom a legal, low light hunting scenario where my Conquest, w/ a 44mm objective was not enough scope.
I have lost my reticle, long before I lost my sight picture. And this is really my point..
Too me, coatings/glass on a quality scope "should" negate the bigger obj. size on a low end scope. Up to legal hunting times.
That said, our friends in Europe hunt at night a lot, and use say a Schmidt und Bender w/ a 50-56mm obj. lens scope. Quality glass/coatings+ larger diameter obj.= More "brightness". I hate that term...And then they will throw in a lit reticle because they too will loose the reticle, even if they have enough sight picture.
Maybe I'm crazy..... |
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redneckbmxer24
Optics Master Joined: June/02/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1055 |
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once again, which leupold is it?? is its a rifleman, or VXI, i can understand the banner being brighter, but it WILL NOT be brighter than a VXIII, theres simply no way. and remember, the most exit pupil you can use is 7mm, and you eye only needs 5mm, and i have no problem hunting in very low light with my SS10X42, and it only has a 4.2mm exit pupil. if the coatings are good, you can night hunt with a scope on 7 power with a 20mm objective, the objective has nothing to do with it. i ditto shamus on the 4200, i would get the 2.5-10x40, or the conquest 3-9x40 would work perfect aswell.
cory |
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If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns, I'll be only one of millions!!!
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Elmer Fudd
Optics GrassHopper Joined: October/27/2004 Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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My Leupold is a Vari-X III 3.5-10x40mm LR. From what I have read a good scope will transmit maybe 10% more light than a cheap scope. That is not much when you consider the 56% you gain from a 50mm versus 40mm objective. |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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You seem like you made up your mind that "you need" a 50mm scope.
I hunt/shoot in extreme low light conditions, to having to contend with wicked mirage problems on hot, sunny days.
A 44mm USO is all the scope I have ever needed. Period.
The 56% more LT you think you are getting with a 50mm scope may be true, but it cannot be utilized fully because at some point, good or bad scope, you won't be able to see your reticle.
If you are shooting in EXTREME low light situations, get a lit reticle. If you want a 56mm obj. lens, knock yourself out.... |
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