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New cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2007 at 14:47
ive got everything on the list except .223 260 270 338 and 375
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2007 at 14:57
WHAT You don't have a 270? Yikes! I can't believe what I'm seeing.......how can you possibly expect to earn the Jack O award this year.....:>)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2007 at 15:08
i wont win the jack o award but i will win the jackass award!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2007 at 15:33
you know i should dig that article out of one of my magazines that i have and show what one of the gun writters thought about all the chamberings that are offered today and really piss some people off by re-printing that article and tell the ones he'd keep and the ones he'd get rid of, some i agree with some of it i was like wtf is he thinking there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mwyates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2007 at 17:21
OK, OK, add the 7 Mag to my list
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2007 at 17:23
i dont have the 7mm either yetLight%20It%20Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2007 at 20:04
Dolphin,
Sorry, but you misunderstood my distinction between headspacing and excess clearance between the forward portion of the case and chamber.  Don't confuse the two, though they are somewhat related.  I'm not trying to engage in a long series of rebuttals, but this concept is totally germane to your points about belted cartridges and I feel needs to be mentioned to help you avoid mistakes and frustration, since you're planning to start chambering barrels.  Also, understanding these concepts are vitally important to an amateur gunsmith for safety reasons, which cannot be overstated.  Respectfully, your statement:
Therefore, changes that occur in the chamber of all rifles are less likely to affect head spacing and create a situation where you have excessive head space and a bolt close on a no go gouger, creating a really dangerous situation.  Yes, the shell does act as a gasket, but fortunately, as you well know, the modern bolt actions of today are forgiving as demonstrated by all of the reloaders today practicing various techniques with respect to resizing the neck or the entire case using the reloads in various rifles.  Obviously, the cartridge will not create an entire seal through out the length of the cartridge.  The longer the cartridge, the more likely you will have a greater % area of seal, regardless of whether it is a belted or non-belted cartridge. 
 
is incorrect and misses the point.  First of all, the cartridge DOES create a 100% seal, and it HAS to, otherwise very bad things happen!  Hot, high pressure gasses are coming back toward the shooter thorough the firing pin hole, extractor slot cuts in the bolt face, etc.  Once you have 50,000 psi of pressure acting on the case, the brass expands in all directions to totally conform to the chamber very rapidly by the time the bullet is expelled from the case.  If the brass has to expand too far due to too much clearance between the case and chamber wall, the yield strength of the brass is exceeded and it splits, no longer forming a seal, and gas is coming backwards.  This is where the totally enclosed bolt face has a safety advantage and why Rem designed their M700 bolt face with the extractor totally inside the bolt face counterbore.  Even though a belted case headspaces on the belt, excess case clearance in the remainder of the chamber has the same effect as excess headspace in a non-belted case -- a ruptured case, which any way you slice it is an extremely unsafe condition!
 
Read Harold Vaughn's "Rifle Accuracy Facts," as he does a better job of explaining the concept of initial bullet misalignment when there is a sloppy fit between the case and chamber than I could here.  By headspacing on the belt, you have a very short area of actual cartridge support, contrasted with a cartridge that headspaces on the shoulder where you have 2 conical mating surfaces between case and chamber that helps self-center the case and does a better job of alignining the bullet with the lands.  The more you can increase the supported length of the case and heaspace as close as possible to the bullet, the better as far as accuracy is concerned.  If the case is settling more on one side of the chamber than the other by gravity or ejector spring pressure, even by a few 0.001", the bullet will enter the rifling slightly yawed, and it's centerline of rotation will not be concentric with the centerline of the bore, which hinders accuracy.  This is one of the reasons why many benchrest shooters turn necks and shoot fireformed, neck sized only cases.  However, it sounds like you already understand this somewhat by your statement that fireformed brass "...extend(s) the life of the brass and to better fit the rifle chamber and hopefully improve accuracy. (emphasis added)"  The reason it does help improve accuracy is better concentricity with the bore.  The alignment issue doesn't matter a great deal when it comes to hunting rifles, but still, since it is a disadvantage nonetheless, why design a new cartridge with a belt if it doesn't need it for headspacing?  Again, there are no advantages to the belt in the design of a modern cartridge... none whatsoever.  This isn't a matter of opinion, it's fact.
 
There is no difference in neither the process nor ease required to chamber and install a barrel with either a belted or non belted chambering.  Either will require you chuck the barrel on centers in a lathe, prebore the chamber, finish with a piloted chamber reamer, and face the barrel tenon.  Reaming by hand is for removing small amounts of material, converting existing chambers to "improved" versions.
 
As for feeding problems with the short mags, the problem mainly arises when you convert an existing short action rifle to a short mag.  The hoopla about WSM feeding problems started when these rounds were first introduced and gunsmiths hadn't yet understood how to make them feed properly.  I even know of a couple gunsmiths that refuse to chamber WSMs because they have problems making them feed right in converted actions.  Rebarrel a short action M700 to a WSM without widening the forward portion of the feed rails and the sides of the feed ramp, and you WILL have feeding problems, guaranteed because without these modifications, the short fat cartridge is trying to enter the chamber at too abrupt an angle.  I found that out first hand with mine, and learned quite a bit about feeding concepts from several phone conversations with a very prominent competition rifle builder from the northeast.  A new action built specifically for the short mags from the beginning doesn't have this problem.  Good thing the short mags don't also have the belt to contend with...Whacko
 
 


Edited by RifleDude - December/12/2007 at 20:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/12/2007 at 20:41
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Dolphin,
Sorry, but you misunderstood my distinction between headspacing and excess clearance between the forward portion of the case and chamber.  Don't confuse the two, though they are somewhat related.  I'm not trying to engage in a long series of rebuttals, but this concept is totally germane to your points about belted cartridges and I feel needs to be mentioned to help you avoid mistakes and frustration, since you're planning to start chambering barrels.  Also, understanding these concepts are vitally important to an amateur gunsmith for safety reasons, which cannot be overstated.  Respectfully, your statement:
Therefore, changes that occur in the chamber of all rifles are less likely to affect head spacing and create a situation where you have excessive head space and a bolt close on a no go gouger, creating a really dangerous situation.  Yes, the shell does act as a gasket, but fortunately, as you well know, the modern bolt actions of today are forgiving as demonstrated by all of the reloaders today practicing various techniques with respect to resizing the neck or the entire case using the reloads in various rifles.  Obviously, the cartridge will not create an entire seal through out the length of the cartridge.  The longer the cartridge, the more likely you will have a greater % area of seal, regardless of whether it is a belted or non-belted cartridge. 
 
is incorrect and misses the point.  First of all, the cartridge DOES create a 100% seal, and it HAS to, otherwise very bad things happen!  Hot, high pressure gasses are coming back toward the shooter thorough the firing pin hole, extractor slot cuts in the bolt face, etc.  Once you have 50,000 psi of pressure acting on the case, the brass expands in all directions to totally conform to the chamber very rapidly by the time the bullet is expelled from the case.  If the brass has to expand too far due to too much clearance between the case and chamber wall, the yield strength of the brass is exceeded and it splits, no longer forming a seal, and gas is coming backwards.  This is where the totally enclosed bolt face has a safety advantage and why Rem designed their M700 bolt face with the extractor totally inside the bolt face counterbore.  Even though a belted case headspaces on the belt, excess case clearance in the remainder of the chamber has the same effect as excess headspace in a non-belted case -- a ruptured case, which any way you slice it is an extremely unsafe condition!
 
Read Harold Vaughn's "Rifle Accuracy Facts," as he does a better job of explaining the concept of initial bullet misalignment when there is a sloppy fit between the case and chamber than I could here.  By headspacing on the belt, you have a very short area of actual cartridge support, contrasted with a cartridge that headspaces on the shoulder where you have 2 conical mating surfaces between case and chamber that helps self-center the case and does a better job of alignining the bullet with the lands.  The more you can increase the supported length of the case and heaspace as close as possible to the bullet, the better as far as accuracy is concerned.  If the case is settling more on one side of the chamber than the other by gravity or ejector spring pressure, even by a few 0.001", the bullet will enter the rifling slightly yawed, and it's centerline of rotation will not be concentric with the centerline of the bore, which hinders accuracy.  This is one of the reasons why many benchrest shooters turn necks and shoot fireformed, neck sized only cases.  However, it sounds like you already understand this somewhat by your statement that fireformed brass "...extend(s) the life of the brass and to better fit the rifle chamber and hopefully improve accuracy. (emphasis added)"  The reason it does help improve accuracy is better concentricity with the bore.  The alignment issue doesn't matter a great deal when it comes to hunting rifles, but still, since it is a disadvantage nonetheless, why design a new cartridge with a belt if it doesn't need it for headspacing?  Again, there are no advantages to the belt in the design of a modern cartridge... none whatsoever.  This isn't a matter of opinion, it's fact.
 
There is no difference in neither the process nor ease required to chamber and install a barrel with either a belted or non belted chambering.  Either will require you chuck the barrel on centers in a lathe, prebore the chamber, finish with a piloted chamber reamer, and face the barrel tenon.  Reaming by hand is for removing small amounts of material, converting existing chambers to "improved" versions.
 
As for feeding problems with the short mags, the problem mainly arises when you convert an existing short action rifle to a short mag.  The hoopla about WSM feeding problems started when these rounds were first introduced and gunsmiths hadn't yet understood how to make them feed properly.  I even know of a couple gunsmiths that refuse to chamber WSMs because they have problems making them feed right in converted actions.  Rebarrel a short action M700 to a WSM without widening the forward portion of the feed rails and the sides of the feed ramp, and you WILL have feeding problems, guaranteed because without these modifications, the short fat cartridge is trying to enter the chamber at too abrupt an angle.  I found that out first hand with mine, and learned quite a bit about feeding concepts from several phone conversations with a very prominent competition rifle builder from the northeast.  A new action built specifically for the short mags from the beginning doesn't have this problem.  Good thing the short mags don't also have the belt to contend with...Whacko
 
 
First, examine a no go gauge for a belted cartridge, totally different than that of a 30-06.  If I may repeat, that is because the case headspaces on the belt.  The slop that you say is at the shoulders is in your opinion.  Why would a belted case have more slop at the shoulders than a non-belted case.  It makes no sense at all and in fact, your statement is a an argument that producers of belted cases have poor quality control.  There is absolutely no reason hat a belted case should have more slop in the shoulders of the case than a non-belted case.  That argument is absolutely ridiculous.  How many hunters do you know that have suffered using a 300 win. mag or 7mm. rem. mag. because of the belted cases.  Both are extremely accurate cartridges and to think otherwise is like looking into the head lights of car, in the style of a deer.  One could make an argument that the belted cases have two safeguards with respect to headspacing, the belt and the shoulder.  Modern case manufacturers do make cases that do not have excessive slop.  As far as the Rem. 700 action is concerned, please relinquish the fact that with all due respect and my admiration and love for the 700, Wby. has taken great lengths to make the strongest bolt action production rifle on the market and close to one of the strongest of all.  So, please do not let your enthusiasm for the aftermarket availability of parts and conversions, sway any decision regarding your remarks.  Everyone knows that the 700 reigns supreme in this realm.  The belted case is
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Sorry, buddy, but you still don't understand what I'm trying to say.  There HAS to be clearance between a full length resized case (as in factory ammo) and the chamber, otherwise, some cases wouldn't feed into some chambers.  The clearance is built into the SAAMI tolerances.  It has nothing to do with poor quality control.  You have to understand the concept of manufacturing tolerances to fully grasp what I'm talking about.  Every manufactured product is made to acceptable dimensional tolerances, and no two mass produced parts can ever mate absolutely perfectly with one another, especially when they are produced in different processes from different manufacturers.  This is why a fireformed, neck sized only case won't chamber in many rifles besides the one it was fired in.  The reason a belted case DOES have more slop at the forward end of the case than a non-belted case is because it DOES NOT headspace at the shoulder, but on the belt.  The belt stops further forward movement of the case in the chamber, preventing the shoulder from making contact with the front of the chamber.  At best, a case may headspace on both the shoulder and the belt at the same time, but not typically.  This is why reloaders find it advantageous to not set the shoulder back when resizing so it no longer headspaces on the belt, but on the shoulder.  If the gap between case shoulder and chamber didn't exist when a FL resized round is inserted into the chamber, then how would it be possible for the shoulder height to grow after firing, making it possible for a reloaded, fireformed case to then headspace on the shoulder instead of the belt?  Under normal circumstances, this gap isn't huge by the way; only a few 0.001".  In a properly chambered rifle to specs, this IS NOT a safety issue at all, because there isn't enough brass stretch forward of the belt to cause case rupture.  The answer to your rhetorical question: "How many hunters do you know that have suffered using a 300 win. mag or 7mm. rem. mag. because of the belted cases" is a resounding NONE, because as I said in my first post on this, the chamber dimensional relationships are fixed by the reamer profile.  Therefore, it WON'T happen in a properly chambered rifle, using properly sized cases.  My point here was merely an attempt to explain to you why your assumption that the chamber forward of the belt doesn't matter is false.  To illustrate the point, I was using as an example what sometimes happens when a handloader forms a case from another parent case and sets the shoulder too far back.  You will also notice in my first post that I said belted magnums can be very accurate, and frequently are.  But, I repeat, if you are putting together all the best case design features into one, you would NOT incorporate the belt if your goal was to maximize accuracy, case life, feeding smoothness, and case capacity.
 
What I have relayed to you about belted cases is not opinion, either mine or someone else's regurgitated back to you; it is fact.  I'm sorry you don't understand or accept this, but ask around and you'll find I'm not telling you anything that isn't common knowledge among experienced gunsmiths.  To answer your question, the reason the belted cases are here to stay is because our first magnum cartridges, and some of the most popular, time proven cartridges ever invented, are based on the .375 H&H parent case, NOT because the belt itself serves any advantageous purpose.  On cases like the .375 and .300 H&H, it did serve a purpose.  It DOES NOT any more with sharp shouldered cases.  This is why NONE of the new magnum cartridge introductions have the belt. 
 
If you've read my statements carefully, I'm not at all saying we don't have fine cartridge choices based on belted cases.  Two of my personal favorite rounds, the 7RM and 300WM, are belted.  I'm confining my comments solely to the belt itself as an individual design feature.  The modern belted cartridges would be slightly superior without the belt and there is no logical reason at all to use the belt on a brand new cartridge design if the designer is starting from a clean sheet of paper and not basing it on the .375 H&H parent case.  At the time our popular belted mags were designed, it was not practical to use another parent case, otherwise, they wouldn't have the belts today.
 
On the Rem 700, AGAIN -- and please read this very carefully -- I'm not talking about bolt lug shear strength or any other aspect of action strength other than gas handling.  There is no way ANY bolt action design from ANY maker incorporating a non-enclosed bolt face is as safe as an enclosed bolt face design in terms of handling gas blowback into the action in the event of a ruptured case.  With the unenclosed bolt face, gas bleeds around the extractor slot, fixed ejector slot, or CRF slot.  With the enclosed bolt face, there is no place for the gas to go except out the barrel, and the barrel tenon is counterbored to accept the bolt face extension.  This has nothing whatsoever to do with my supposed enthusiasm over aftermarket parts and conversions, and in fact, I've stated repeatedly that my favorite actions are all variations of the Mauser design, even though I realize they are inferior in this one aspect of their design.  I didn't intend to get into a discussion of the relative merits of actions.  I only used the Rem 700 as an illustration of why the enclosed bolt face was designed to help clarify my statements about what happens when brass stretches too far under extreme pressure.
 
If you wish to continue telling me my statements are "ridiculous," send me a PM and I'll be happy to give you my phone number.  We can continue this discussion over the phone where we won't get cramps from typing.  I'll even pay for the call.Big%20Smile


Edited by RifleDude - December/12/2007 at 22:39
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 05:39

Ted, I understand your statement as far as the potential for more slop if the cartridge headspaces on the belt, given chamber variations of rifles and to that I can agree, but given the quality of the rifles and ammunition I purchase, i.e. Wby. I do not feel that is a problem, as Norma manufactures to strict tolerances for that specific rifle.  But still there are tolerances, I will give you that.  But, I will argue that chamber variation occurs in in non-belted caliber rifles.  While this does not translate into slop, it does affect accuracy and hence the reason some ammo works better than others and the fact carefully done hand loads using the Hornady/Stoney point gauge and even better when using the comparator gauge, you can get very accurate loads.  Personally, I would not hand load on the shoulders for a belted cartridge.  First, if it has been fire formed, you are set, the slop will be gone, making sure all you dimensions are correct and second, you set up a weak point at the belt, where there is a strong point and a weak point, i.e. a possible point where case separation could occur.  Obviously this is a probably rare, with all the hand loaders around.  I apologize for the term, ridiculous, it was not meant as a personal affrontment regarding your knowledge or statements, but regarding strictly quality control, to which you did not ever make a comment about.

Ted, actually, I really believe with both are agreeing on the topic, minus just a few points.  I understand what you have to say, which is all true, but I think that going through a forum like this, it is difficult to understand each others point and takes longer to get to that understanding.  And yes, If you could PM me you phone number, I will give you a call just to talk, not only about this but other things.



Edited by Dolphin - December/13/2007 at 05:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 07:48

Dolphin, buddy, it's evident I'm not able to do a very good job of explaining what I'm talking about, as you still don't understand the point.  Apparently, this is one of those things that I'd have to draw a picture to illustrate. 

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Ted, I understand your statement as far as the potential for more slop if the cartridge headspaces on the belt, given chamber variations of rifles and to that I can agree, but given the quality of the rifles and ammunition I purchase, i.e. Wby. I do not feel that is a problem, as Norma manufactures to strict tolerances for that specific rifle. 
All ammunition manufacturers, reamer manufacturers, headspace gage manufacturers, and firearms manufacturers adhere to SAAMI tolerances, otherwise you would not be able to interchange different brands of factory ammo in different factory rifles.  Wby and Norma are no different than anyone else in this regard.  I didn't say there was a "problem," I was attempting to explain to you the many reasons why headspacing really close to the bolt face was inferior to headspacing at the shoulder so you would understand why the new magnums don't have a belt and why it's advantageous for them not to.  The title of your thread is "new cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted," and I was speaking to the fact that in every respect, having a belt on the case is a disadvantage, not in any way an advantage.  This in no way implies that there's something wrong with belted magnums, only that they would be better without the belt present from a design standpoint.  I think maybe you are hung up on my use of the word "slop."  Maybe instead of "slop," which has a negative connotation, I should have used the word "clearance" throughout, because I use these two words interchangeably to mean the same thing.
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

But still there are tolerances, I will give you that.  But, I will argue that chamber variation occurs in in non-belted caliber rifles.  While this does not translate into slop, it does affect accuracy and hence the reason some ammo works better than others and the fact carefully done hand loads using the Hornady/Stoney point gauge and even better when using the comparator gauge, you can get very accurate loads. 
There are designed-in manufacturing tolerances to every consumer product you buy that isn't hand made; there has to be.  People outside of manufacturing commonly misunderstand the concept of tolerances.  Tolerances are not the result of any inability to control quality; quite the opposite, they are acceptable dimensional variations set by control limits that are designed in to the product before the product is actually made to ensure proper functioning and interchangeability of mating components.  The Stoney Point gage and the various comparators measures bullet seating depth only; it does not address case to chamber clearances. 
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Personally, I would not hand load on the shoulders for a belted cartridge.  First, if it has been fire formed, you are set, the slop will be gone, making sure all you dimensions are correct and second, you set up a weak point at the belt, where there is a strong point and a weak point, i.e. a possible point where case separation could occur. 
 If you are handloading using fireformed cases, you ARE in fact headspacing on the shoulder and NOT on the belt, whether you realize it or not.  This DOES NOT set up any "weak point" at the belt or anywhere else and there is NO disadvantage to doing this other than the tighter fit sometimes causing chambering difficulty in the field.  Your brass will last much longer when you do this, which, along with the potential accuracy improvement, is why people do it. 
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

...but regarding strictly quality control, to which you did not ever make a comment about.
  Yes, in fact I did; reread my reply
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Ted, actually, I really believe with both are agreeing on the topic, minus just a few points. 
  If your basic premise is that there's any advantage to a case belt whatsoever, other than the fact that the brass that has it is readily available, then no, we're 180 degrees apart. 
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

And yes, If you could PM me you phone number, I will give you a call just to talk, not only about this but other things.
Done.  Check your PMs.



Edited by RifleDude - December/13/2007 at 07:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 07:55
oh boy class is in session kids and i fear im not going to do so good in school as i did when i was younger.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 07:59

starting with a disclaimer-- not trying to cover all the points-- but two ways to judge case head strength, ratio of primer area to total case head size, and thickness of the web (which certainly puts cases like the 9x23 in the strongest catagory).  Load for 416,338,300 in belt and pretend the belt isn't there, headspace of shoulder, and so do all the target shooters I shoot against. Except in the case of 416 where reliability is the over riding issue then FL resizing.

no bench rest round has a belt

no long distance round of recent design has a belt.

belts feed sh*ty out of box magazines

the residual pressure just as the bullet leaves the barrel, just to pick a number, can be around 4-6 atmospheres, or between 4-10 joules. by this time the case is no longer seized by the sides of the chamber and has returned to orginal specs, and if not neck sized only,  can be still be have the primer pushed back and flattened given the appearance of over load. (occurs in revolvers all the time, and guns that use silencers). If using a belt helped the machine gun people would be all over it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 08:14
holy crap dale that made some sense thanks
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 12:53
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

starting with a disclaimer-- not trying to cover all the points-- but two ways to judge case head strength, ratio of primer area to total case head size, and thickness of the web (which certainly puts cases like the 9x23 in the strongest catagory).  Load for 416,338,300 in belt and pretend the belt isn't there, headspace of shoulder, and so do all the target shooters I shoot against. Except in the case of 416 where reliability is the over riding issue then FL resizing.

no bench rest round has a belt

no long distance round of recent design has a belt.

belts feed sh*ty out of box magazines

the residual pressure just as the bullet leaves the barrel, just to pick a number, can be around 4-6 atmospheres, or between 4-10 joules. by this time the case is no longer seized by the sides of the chamber and has returned to orginal specs, and if not neck sized only,  can be still be have the primer pushed back and flattened given the appearance of over load. (occurs in revolvers all the time, and guns that use silencers). If using a belt helped the machine gun people would be all over it.

Good point, which made my point, that if there was such excessive slop with the belted cartridge one should see more problems with the belted cases as that is a potential weak link, where a strong point meets a weaker point.  But it does not happen.  As far as belted cases feeding sh*tty out of magazines, thats funny, never had one malfunction shooting all those belted cartridges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:02
ive never had a malfunction with any of my belted cases either.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:15
whens the last time you tried to get a belted case in a M1-A mag.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:17
why in the world would i wanna do that i only use belted cases for hunting not competition
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:18
Ted, I think you misunderstood my statement with respect to Norma and Wby..  Norma manufactures its ammo in strict tolerances not only to SAAMI specs., but to Wby. rifles.  I have used non-Wby. brand Wby. cartridges and there is a clear difference in accuracy, hands down.  Even the published velocities and energies of similar cartridges are not the same.
With respect to your statement regarding quality control, I did not see any such statement in your original post and if there was, it was not referring to that, but just to the fact that with respect to quality control, the tolerances for belted and non-belted cases should be no different.
As far a shooting fire formed brass, in the case of belted cartridges, if properly trimmed to size, you should be headspacing on the belt, as you previously state that some handloaders purposely set the shoulders back to headspace on the shoulders, or did you mean with unfired brass?
I perfectly understand what manufacturing tolerances are.  While I do not work in an industry that is production based, I think most of us on this forum use products everyday that are produced on a mass scale and realize that there are variations that we have learned to live with and occasional as the bell curve dictates, some will deviate further than others.
My point that we basically agree on alot of things regarding this topic, still rings true, but is being expressed differently and from a different standpoint.  I tend to think outside of the box and was curious as to what others thought about the topic.  As I stated clearly, I really do not see the need for more experimentation with the belted cartridge, as a whole, I really do not see that many disadvantages.  I do not believe we are 180 degrees apart if you really look and read what we have both said.  Yes, I can see how there would be excessive slop, but is it crucial to the shooter.  I really do not believe so.  And I agree with many of your other points.  So, lets call it quits on this topic.


Edited by Dolphin - December/13/2007 at 13:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/13/2007 at 13:19
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Good point, which made my point, that if there was such excessive slop with the belted cartridge one should see more problems with the belted cases as that is a potential weak link, where a strong point meets a weaker point.  But it does not happen.
Actually, he's disputing your point, and you're still taking what I said out of context...
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

I didn't say there was a "problem," I was attempting to explain to you the many reasons why headspacing really close to the bolt face was inferior to headspacing at the shoulder so you would understand why the new magnums don't have a belt and why it's advantageous for them not to.  The title of your thread is "new cartridge designs, belted vs. non-belted," and I was speaking to the fact that in every respect, having a belt on the case is a disadvantage, not in any way an advantage.  This in no way implies that there's something wrong with belted magnums, only that they would be better without the belt present from a design standpoint.  I think maybe you are hung up on my use of the word "slop."  Maybe instead of "slop," which has a negative connotation, I should have used the word "clearance" throughout, because I use these two words interchangeably to mean the same thing.
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