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Barnes TripleX NOT stopping deer?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flyspy1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/01/2007 at 19:32
Yep, I think think every once in a while something like this happens to you just to remind you that you don't know it all and anything can happen.  Learned my lesson on this one.  I'll be sticking with the Accubonds until they let me down for some reason, but I think that'll be unlikely! Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CowboyBill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2008 at 11:00
i hate that there was a problem with recovering your deer, i don't think it was entirely the bullet though. it could have been that the weight and charge were too much. i have had deer drop in their tracks and had deer to seemingly go and go, like the energizer bunny, even though it was a good shot. you just never know. don't give up on the barnes just yet though, they are great bullets, and do a fantastic job. my friends cyborg and pyro don't care for them, i know and they'll probably give me a hard time, that's ok though. i like what i like, and use what i like.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucznik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2008 at 11:39
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Guys, remember that it's a huge mistake to make any generalization about bullet performance -- good or bad -- based on a sample size of one.  One anecdotal experience proves nothing, because there are just too many variables, not the least of which the fact that individual animals are subject to react unpredictably to a perfect shot.  I'd venture to say you could take any decent bullet available and someone out there has had a bad experience with it, even on animals it was specifically designed to be used for. 
 
What you say is true.  However, it is unlikely that any of us are ever going to be able to shoot enough animals, with enough different types of bullets, and under sufficiently controlled circumstances to ever amass a stastistically relevant sample size for drawing "authoritative" conclusions.  There also is (at least to my knowledge) no source for unbiased, long-term, comparative inormation about how different bullets of comparable classes perform - whether on test media or on game. This problem is compounded by the fact that the various "gun writers" have an almost pathological aversion to saying anything negative about any product they are asked to review.   
 
Thus, we are all left to draw conclusions from what little reliable information we can glean. In such a scenario, a couple of bad experiences is all it takes to sour someone to a particular product - even if those experiences don't amount to a valid sample size.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2008 at 11:56
Over on AR they are really going back and forth on the barnes bullets. Way too many guys having bad experiences with them to write it off as coincidence, petals breaking off, some failing to open and driving right through with caliber size entrances and exits, and the bad quality control on the tips (some full of copper - some drilled with a hollow point - some with a dimple and no depth to the hollow point). These guys need to get their design correct, and improve the quality control for the price you pay for them. Won't take nosler long to improve and produce a quality non lead bullet. Barnes will be a few more years I'm guessing.....

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/17/2008 at 13:36

Anyone can get on an internet forum and say anything and the reader has no way of verifying the truth or understanding of the context in which the statements were made.  I've seen far too many examples of people who trash products on the internet without any actual experience with them.  Often, when pressed, you find they're just parroting what someone else told them.  I'm not at all implying that that's the case here, but that could be what's happening over at the other forum mentioned. 

I'm not even defending Barnes.  I've had both good and bad experiences with Barnes bullets, as with many other brands.  They aren't my first choice for deer, not because I think they won't work just fine, but because I've had great success with the Nosler Accubond.  The AB shoots great in so many of my rifles, seems to have the perfect combination of expansion and penetration on deer sized game, and costs much less than Triple Shocks.  I've killed a couple of animals with the TSX and they performed well for me.  I don't know if petals broke off or if the bullets had textbook perfect expansion, because I could find no part of the bullets to recover, only gaping holes left in dead animals.  I've been able to get very good accuracy with the TSX in a couple rifles, but I never was successful in getting the earlier X Bullets, with or without the blue coating, to shoot very well in my guns.  I may have eventually found a great load combination with them, but I was able to get great performance both on paper and on game with various other bullets, so I saw no compelling need to continue trying more load combinations.  I too had basically written off Barnes until I tried the TSX, which seems to address all the issues with the earlier X & XLC.
 
My only point is that it appears the verdict is already in and we're talking about "lessons learned" in this thread based on a couple of isolated examples, and I would caution people not to rush to judgement.  Lucznik's points are very valid about the difficulty in devising a statistically sound test of true bullet performance on live game animals, and I'd probably feel the same way if I had even a couple of less than stellar experiences with a particular bullet.  On the other hand, if we draw concrete conclusions about any product based on one or two anecdotal experiences reported on the internet, where does that eventually lead us?  Using that standard, we'd end up not using any bullet, scope, rifle, whatever, because I guarantee you it's not hard to find someone who had a bad experience with any brand of gear.  You only have to do a search of any high end scope brand on this forum to find examples of this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 09:14
Well Ted I agree with ya but some of the threads on 24hr campfire and AR have involved dozens of different posters with widely varying experiences. The one thread involved John Barness from handloader magazine and Allen Day another shooting heavyweight. I actually don't pass off their posts as anecdotal however and they even involved some design testing at nosler corp. I viewed the pics of the tip quality control problems on the 30 caliber and less barnes and you could see the problem with a simple look. Course they are addressing that now with plastic tips as we speak about it apparently. I merely think its a constant revamp with barnes and will wait till they apparently get all the problems addressed before I spend money to build a load with a bullet that may change yet again in the next few months. The accubonds are also being evaluated pretty hard right now too and not all reports about them are glowing either. I kinda feel the guilding metal jacketed plastic tipped noslers may be more debugged at their introduction than what its took barnes to achieve in past years. Barnes sudden changing BC info with the introduction of the plastic tipped loads leads me to believe they did a bit of fudging with the early pre tipped BC numbers as well. For now I'll stick with the accubond as you are, simply due to the excellent performance on the deer sized game I hunt, and the amazing accuracy...

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Edited by Focus - January/18/2008 at 09:17
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 09:17
im still befuddled about this berger vld movement thats taking place, from one end of the spectrum to the other there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 09:23
Yup I'm going to give them a FAIR try myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 09:26
Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

Yup I'm going to give them a FAIR try myself.
which bullet bd??
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 09:33
the berger VLD in 168gr.none moly
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 09:38
hmm thats a thought
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 11:09

By nature, I like to experiment with new stuff, but I've had such good luck with the AB's on deer and hogs, I may just stick with them for awhile.  I certainly haven't had any problem getting them to shoot well in my 7-08, .308, .25-06... so far.  My .300 and 7 mag both like the TSX real well, and I have shot a few critters with it with good results, but I haven't killed an elk with it yet, which is what I loaded it for in these rifles.  You're right, Focus, they have been making a lot of changes to their product lately, so I can understand the reluctancy to try Barnes' stuff, not to mention their prices.  Have you seen how much that new MRX costs?  $30 - $35 for only 20/box!!!!  Nevertheless, I just hate seeing a quality manufacturer get undue bad publicity, and I won't criticize any product without first hand bad experiences to back it up.

I like a bullet that expands well, yet stays together and fully penetrates, so I won't be buying the Berger bullets for big game (though I do use their bullets some on varmints and they work great and produce excellent accuracy).  I'm not among the group that believes a bullet should stay inside the animal and not exit, because I believe that this makes for more unpredictable performance, sometimes doing enough damage to cause instant kills, sometimes not, depending on the shot angle, distance, and terminal velocity.  I believe a bullet should expand a moderate amount, do plenty of damage along the way, and always exit.  That way, if the animal does manage to travel some before laying down, you have a good blood trail to follow, and you don't completely destroy a bunch of meat like the violent expanders do.  You can't really have it both ways -- if a bullet expands too much, it doesn't penetrate well because it has too much frontal surface area.  If it expands too violently, it breaks apart and loses mass, which also limits penetration.  On the other hand, if it's too tough and penetrates too well, it cannot expand a great deal at the same time, because again, expansion slows down penetration.  This is the dilemma bullet designers face, and why there really isn't such thing as a "perfect" bullet for everything that walks.  This is why I like the bonded core bullets like the AB's and Sciroccos that expand yet stay together for deer sized animals.  But for thicker, heavier animals like elk, I would select tougher bullets like the A Frame, Fail Safe, TSX.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 11:22
Excellent points Ted, I appreciate your knowledge, and the shared input Bro.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 12:03
Quote I like a bullet that expands well, yet stays together and fully penetrates, so I won't be buying the Berger bullets for big game (though I do use their bullets some on varmints and they work great and produce excellent accuracy). I'm not among the group that believes a bullet should stay inside the animal and not exit, because I believe that this makes for more unpredictable performance, sometimes doing enough damage to cause instant kills, sometimes not, depending on the shot angle, distance, and terminal velocity. I believe a bullet should expand a moderate amount, do plenty of damage along the way, and always exit. That way, if the animal does manage to travel some before laying down, you have a good blood trail to follow, and you don't completely destroy a bunch of meat like the violent expanders do. You can't really have it both ways -- if a bullet expands too much, it doesn't penetrate well because it has too much frontal surface area. If it expands too violently, it breaks apart and loses mass, which also limits penetration. On the other hand, if it's too tough and penetrates too well, it cannot expand a great deal at the same time, because again, expansion slows down penetration. This is the dilemma bullet designers face, and why there really isn't such thing as a "perfect" bullet for everything that walks. This is why I like the bonded core bullets like the AB's and Sciroccos that expand yet stay together for deer sized animals.


I couldn't have said it better myself as far as how I feel concerning big game bullet performance. Its why I will never be trying bergers either. Give me expansion with a pass through cause not every animal will drop like a stone and the ones that head into our thick stuff take a bit of blood trail to follow. Two holes leak more blood than one every time.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dunagan15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 13:28
My bullet of choice so far is the winchest 168 gr ballistic silvertips, have dropped 4 out of 5(doe) and the buck only made it 10 yards

And about the Alabama hunting, all of those were taken in the past two weeks in Bulluch Co.(Union Springs)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote robbie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 22:19

I'm definately a ballistics beginner.  I just read this whole thread and am completely confused. 

My son and I both hunt with .308.  We hunt relatively small whitetail in MO.  We started with core-Loct and I was frustrated by the tracking and lack of recovery that we experienced.  We now are using Federal Premium 165 gr Ballistic tips.  While somewhat better, still not many drop in their tracks.  In reading this thread, I would believe that we should be seeing large exit wounds.  We don't.  In fact, as a rule, I'd say most exit holes are not noticeably larger than entrance hole.  Most shots are within 100 yards.  Most deer are less than 150 pounds - I guess a great many are even less than 100 pounds.  Are we passing through before expansion can take place?   I wouldnt think so with the relativey slow (for .30 cal) cartridge.
As I type this, I recall that my Bro-in-law (who hunts with us) uses 7mm Winchester ballistic silvertips and he always seems to "blow the snot" out of his kill.  My wife complains that he ruins more meat.  Are the Winchesters better than the Federals?
Are there other explanations?
Any suggestions? - I realize all situations are different, but based on above info, our situations are fairly narrow and consistent.
Thanks to all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dunagan15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/18/2008 at 22:41
Robbie, currently with my new rifle(Tikka 30.06) I use as previously stated 168 grain winchester ballistic silvertips mainly because I know I could have to take a 250 shot. So far ive loved these bullets simply because like you said they " blow the snot" out of the deer but in my experiences with those 100 yard shots ive saved most of the meat. Im not sure why the Fed. Premium you are using(havent shot them) arnt droping them in their tracks but maybe you should look at the 150 gr hornaday or sierra game kings(130 gr. might even be enough for under 100 yard shots)

Also test out at your local range with diff. grains to see what shoot best at 100 yards. Good Luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Focus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2008 at 08:31
The fact you're using federal premium ammo doesn't change the fact they are using the ballistic tip nosler bullets, this is very similar to the ballistic silver tip made by nosler/winchester. Of course a 7mm (I assume a 7mm remington mag) will do a lot more damage because as a ballastic tip design gets to 3000 or more fps they tend to become MUCH more destructive in performance. Also where a deer is shot can have a bit to do with it also, in the shoulder where it will contact bone produces a lot more meat damage than thru the slats where little to no bone contact occurs. I've found the BT bullet design to work its best at 2700-2900fps and become more of a meat destroyer at higher velocities. Dropping a deer in its tracks IMHO has more to do with where they are shot than with what.....a high shoulder shot that hits the scapula results in a bang flop more often than any other shot but a neck or spine. A behind the shoulder heart lung shot while the deer may drop at the shot, usually results in a run before the drop. Hope that helps, I have been the most impressed with the nosler accubond of late with deer as its pretty much the best of all worlds for performance. I prefer the scapula shot and of the last seven deer shot, only one ran out of my sight, and only two ran at all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RONK Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2008 at 14:03
Originally posted by robbie robbie wrote:

I'm definately a ballistics beginner.  I just read this whole thread and am completely confused. 

My son and I both hunt with .308.  We hunt relatively small whitetail in MO.  We started with core-Loct and I was frustrated by the tracking and lack of recovery that we experienced.  We now are using Federal Premium 165 gr Ballistic tips.  While somewhat better, still not many drop in their tracks.  In reading this thread, I would believe that we should be seeing large exit wounds.  We don't.  In fact, as a rule, I'd say most exit holes are not noticeably larger than entrance hole.  Most shots are within 100 yards.  Most deer are less than 150 pounds - I guess a great many are even less than 100 pounds.  Are we passing through before expansion can take place?   I wouldnt think so with the relativey slow (for .30 cal) cartridge.
As I type this, I recall that my Bro-in-law (who hunts with us) uses 7mm Winchester ballistic silvertips and he always seems to "blow the snot" out of his kill.  My wife complains that he ruins more meat.  Are the Winchesters better than the Federals?
Are there other explanations?
Any suggestions? - I realize all situations are different, but based on above info, our situations are fairly narrow and consistent.
Thanks to all. 
 Your experiences are textbook predictable. The (relatively) modest velocities of the .308 coupled with the small body size of the deer you hunt is not conducive to explosive performance. The deer's body doesn't offer enough resistance to open the bullet violently enough.  I would  suggest dropping to 150 or even 125 Ballistic tips and running them at higher velocity for those deer you hunt. The extra velocity will initiate violent expansion and drop them instantly much more often than the 165s will. You WILL destroy more meat. (Can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs...) Your comment about not thinking they would pass through without opening properly because of the slow velocity of the cartridge indicates to me a misunderstanding on your part about the relationship between velocity and expansion.
 Focus's suggestion to deliberatly shoot through the shoulder will also provide similar results. For what it's worth though, your 165s are surely killing the deer you've been shooting, quickly and cleanly, they just run a bit first. I personally don't see much difference from a humane kill standpoint between that, and one that drops but kicks and thrashes for a half a minute.
 I do know what you're saying about preferring not to track, though.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dunagan15 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/19/2008 at 17:18
Ron, The last two doe I killed (one was 115 lbs the other 118 lbs) both were shot w/ 168 grain at 90-110 yards and they dropped right there. I know all experiences are diff but do you think the brand of bullet had anything to do with it? Both were shot right above the shoulder.
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