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Swarovski vs.

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RifleDude View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2007 at 16:35

Dolphin,

A good friend of mine has a couple of the exact same scopes as I do, with Euro type fast focus eyepieces.  In every case, the setting that provides the best focus for him is not the same setting that gives the sharpest focus for me.  I get behind his scopes, rotate the eyepiece about 90-deg from where he likes it and say "take a look at this; are you telling me this isn't in sharper focus than where you had it?"  He then promptly moves it back to its original setting and tells me his setting provides a sharper, clearer image to his eyes.  I know you said you rotated the eyepiece on the Swaro.  My point was are you sure you really tried to set it to proper focus according to your own vision while standing outside and looking at a fixed object in the distance?  Your original post suggests that you moved the eyepiece a little, but the original setting appeared to give best reticle focus, then went outside to compare.  With Euro scopes, regardless of brand, I always have to turn the eyepiece a full 90 degrees clockwise from its original setting out of the box to bring the image into the sharpest focus for me.  I don't know if this is typical of any, most, or nobody else, but that is the case for me.  Not having been there, I don't know that you didn't properly focus the eyepiece, but could it be possible that you actually wanted to not be impressed with the Swaro so it would justify your originally held premise that it isn't worth the money, and therefore, you didn't try very hard to focus it properly?  Maybe you did and maybe the scope was defective, maybe not.  There could be any number of things not being considered here.  I'm not at all suggesting that you didn't see what you saw, but If indeed you thought the Millet had better optics than the Swaro, then as RC mentioned, thank your lucky stars because you'll save lots of money, because I assure you your observation is certainly not typical.

 

BTW -- I have seen one of the Trijicon Accupoint scopes and I too was pretty impressed with its optics.  I thought it was comparable to the Elite 4200 / Nikon Monarch / Zeiss Conquest level of optical quality.  More than its optics, I really like the reticle.  I have considered buying one of these scopes myself.  My only real objection to the Accupoints is I've heard they aren't waterproof (water-resistant only), but cannot confirm.

 

One thing I have to question, though, is the "forgiving" eye relief comment.  The Trijicon 2.5-10X56 has variable eye relief (4.1" @ 2.5X to 2.8" @ 10X), so eye relief changes (gets shorter) as you zoom in more magnification.  This means that when mounted on a rifle, you have to move your head forward and back as you change magnification, just like with Leupold, Burris, etc.  The Swaro PH has constant 3.2" eye relief regardless of magnification.  How is variable eye relief more "forgiving?"

Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Obi Wan Kenobi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2007 at 17:57

Originally posted by gozarian gozarian wrote:

Dolphin, you NEED to get your eyes checked.  I had some idiot on an Idaho hunting trip last year tell me a similar thing; that his Bushnell Elite 4200 (which I also own) was clearer and brighter than my Swarovski.  We conducted several "in camp" optics viewings, mainly from the "good ole boy Leupold club".  The Leupold boys thought the 4200 was clear, but when they looked through my rifle sporting a Swarovski AV 4-12x50 it was over.  I mean ALL OVER BUT THE CRYIN!   All of the Leupold boys couldn't believe the clarity of the Swarovski over the 4200.  The dude with the 4200 STILL wouldn't concede that he had the inferior glass!  Some people's kids................

 

Hey I know what you mean. I use to be one of those Leupold knuckle heads until my sister's boyfriend convinced me to buy a Zeiss.

 

Since I bought my Zeiss I've bought another & I've bought a 3-12 Kahles. I'm about to purchase a 280 later this week & I'll be in the market for another Zeiss.

 

I don't own a Swarovski but I do own a Kahles & I can say my Kahles is also a kick ass scope in low light. When people mention to me that Bushnells, Nikons or the similar scopes are better or just as good as the high end Swaro's or Zeiss scopes I simply laugh, I don't argue with them because I use to be that way as well. Until you actually hunt with one in low light you won't understand. 

 

All I can say is I "legally" leave my deer stands a lot later than most people I know.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote huntinbucks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2007 at 22:53
Hey Dolphin, are you sure you were looking through the right end of the scope???  Just Kidding... It has been my experience that when buying optics, you get what you pay for.  Zeiss, Swarovski, S&B, etc. don't charge what they do for no reason.  Otherwise, they would never sell a single riflescope.  Just my 2 cents.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 06:20
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Dolphin,

A good friend of mine has a couple of the exact same scopes as I do, with Euro type fast focus eyepieces.  In every case, the setting that provides the best focus for him is not the same setting that gives the sharpest focus for me.  I get behind his scopes, rotate the eyepiece about 90-deg from where he likes it and say "take a look at this; are you telling me this isn't in sharper focus than where you had it?"  He then promptly moves it back to its original setting and tells me his setting provides a sharper, clearer image to his eyes.  I know you said you rotated the eyepiece on the Swaro.  My point was are you sure you really tried to set it to proper focus according to your own vision while standing outside and looking at a fixed object in the distance?  Your original post suggests that you moved the eyepiece a little, but the original setting appeared to give best reticle focus, then went outside to compare.  With Euro scopes, regardless of brand, I always have to turn the eyepiece a full 90 degrees clockwise from its original setting out of the box to bring the image into the sharpest focus for me.  I don't know if this is typical of any, most, or nobody else, but that is the case for me.  Not having been there, I don't know that you didn't properly focus the eyepiece, but could it be possible that you actually wanted to not be impressed with the Swaro so it would justify your originally held premise that it isn't worth the money, and therefore, you didn't try very hard to focus it properly?  Maybe you did and maybe the scope was defective, maybe not.  There could be any number of things not being considered here.  I'm not at all suggesting that you didn't see what you saw, but If indeed you thought the Millet had better optics than the Swaro, then as RC mentioned, thank your lucky stars because you'll save lots of money, because I assure you your observation is certainly not typical.

 

BTW -- I have seen one of the Trijicon Accupoint scopes and I too was pretty impressed with its optics.  I thought it was comparable to the Elite 4200 / Nikon Monarch / Zeiss Conquest level of optical quality.  More than its optics, I really like the reticle.  I have considered buying one of these scopes myself.  My only real objection to the Accupoints is I've heard they aren't waterproof (water-resistant only), but cannot confirm.

 

One thing I have to question, though, is the "forgiving" eye relief comment.  The Trijicon 2.5-10X56 has variable eye relief (4.1" @ 2.5X to 2.8" @ 10X), so eye relief changes (gets shorter) as you zoom in more magnification.  This means that when mounted on a rifle, you have to move your head forward and back as you change magnification, just like with Leupold, Burris, etc.  The Swaro PH has constant 3.2" eye relief regardless of magnification.  How is variable eye relief more "forgiving?"

Ted you are right.  I did not give the SWs a fair shake in trying to focus them.  I played with the ring awhile and could not get it to my liking, but got close, but gave up.  That was my point in the earlier post, it was not any all out compairson, the fact I was blown away with the Trijicon, which is something that never happens to me.  And yes I am worried about the commet of water resistant, even before I purchased the scope.  I really do not do any hunting in the rain, occasionally light drizzle when it hits while hunting, but never go out if it is raining.  Just because where I live, I do not have to travel far and if it is raining, it is just a disincentive and an incentive to go to the workshop.  I let you know more about the scope and what the manual has to say about their water resistance claim, etc. when I get it.  I think I am going to take a Wby. Mark V Deluxe 300 mag. and put into a Bell and Carlson Medalist synthetic stock, spider web tan and mount the scope to it.  I still cannot decide.  Too many rifles.  Got any suggestions, as this is the most expensive scope I have purchased.

 

Oh, one more thing.  When I mean forgiving eye relief, it is difficult to describe.  The true eye relief is variable depending on magnification, but what I mean is that when you move side to side, up or down, there is not whiting out of the reticle, is stays completely clear, until you exit the whole eye piece.  If you look at the video on their site or on this site, at the Trijicon line up of scopes, you will see what I mean.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 06:23

Originally posted by huntinbucks huntinbucks wrote:

Hey Dolphin, are you sure you were looking through the right end of the scope???  Just Kidding... It has been my experience that when buying optics, you get what you pay for.  Zeiss, Swarovski, S&B, etc. don't charge what they do for no reason.  Otherwise, they would never sell a single riflescope.  Just my 2 cents.

You are right, you get what you are paying for and the Trijicon is not a cheap scope.  It may not cost what a SW does, but it is right up their with some Kahles KXs, Zeiss Conquests and Leupold VX-IIIs.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 06:28
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Pyro6999, I like you new name and signature, I like guys who take a stand.  It means that they are willing to stand up for what they believe, say what they believe and take the heat, instead of being a politician.

 

well thats just who i am, its that your either with me or against me attitude and i do take a stand and if i piss people off from time to time while standing for what i believe i dont care.

They call me "Boots"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 11:46
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Pyro6999, I like you new name and signature, I like guys who take a stand.  It means that they are willing to stand up for what they believe, say what they believe and take the heat, instead of being a politician.

 

well thats just who i am, its that your either with me or against me attitude and i do take a stand and if i piss people off from time to time while standing for what i believe i dont care.

 

Amen, O'Connor!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 11:54

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Ted you are right.  I did not give the SWs a fair shake in trying to focus them.  I played with the ring awhile and could not get it to my liking, but got close, but gave up.  That was my point in the earlier post, it was not any all out compairson, the fact I was blown away with the Trijicon, which is something that never happens to me.  And yes I am worried about the commet of water resistant, even before I purchased the scope.  I really do not do any hunting in the rain, occasionally light drizzle when it hits while hunting, but never go out if it is raining.  Just because where I live, I do not have to travel far and if it is raining, it is just a disincentive and an incentive to go to the workshop.  I let you know more about the scope and what the manual has to say about their water resistance claim, etc. when I get it.  I think I am going to take a Wby. Mark V Deluxe 300 mag. and put into a Bell and Carlson Medalist synthetic stock, spider web tan and mount the scope to it.  I still cannot decide.  Too many rifles.  Got any suggestions, as this is the most expensive scope I have purchased.

 

Oh, one more thing.  When I mean forgiving eye relief, it is difficult to describe.  The true eye relief is variable depending on magnification, but what I mean is that when you move side to side, up or down, there is not whiting out of the reticle, is stays completely clear, until you exit the whole eye piece.  If you look at the video on their site or on this site, at the Trijicon line up of scopes, you will see what I mean.

 

On the focus thing, keep in mind that you should focus it outside while looking at an object with lots of detail to get the sharpest image of both target image and reticle.  Unlike the fine threaded eyepiece reticle, don't try to just get the reticle in focus.

 

If you want a synthetic stock of that design, the B&C is a decent one, but I like the HS Precision better, which looks similar, but I think it's made a little better.  Also, you can never go wrong with McMillan or Rimrock when it comes to synthetic stocks.

 

What you may have noticed on the Trijicon is that the ER is longer (and therefore, more "forgiving") when set at lower to mid power than the Swaro... but when mounted on a rifle, the Swaro will have the same 3.2" ER regardless of what power you have it set on, so in actual practice, your head will always remain in the same position on the stock.  The Swaro therefore has longer ER when set on the upper end of the magnification range. 

Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 17:59
Ted, take a look at that video on the swfa sales site for the Trijicon scope.  When they show the deer out of and in the sight is just like what I saw, no matter how I moved my head.  It was if there was no seperation between what I was seeing through the scope with my sighting eye and outside of the scope.  I believe that is what made it look so bright.  It was uncanny.  It was though there was no walls to the eyepiece of the scope.  About a year ago I read about the Bindon Aiming Concept and watched the same video, but just sort of thought it was just another sales pitch and had never been to a shop that carried the scope.  Watch that video and let me know what you think.  Also, I guess I was asking above about what rifle to mount the scope on.  You know roughly what I own.  Regardless of what whether it is better or worse than one scope or another, it is still a fine scope, the most expensive one that I have purchased, so, I want to put it on an accurate rifle that I am going to hunt with this year.  Like I said.  Too many rifles.  That is why I said I might restock that Wby. with a synthetic with an aluminum bedding block for accuracy, although it is shooting slightly less that 1 moa with factory ammo.  Gimme some thoughts, you to pyro6999.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 20:16

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Ted, take a look at that video on the swfa sales site for the Trijicon scope.  When they show the deer out of and in the sight is just like what I saw, no matter how I moved my head.  It was if there was no seperation between what I was seeing through the scope with my sighting eye and outside of the scope.  I believe that is what made it look so bright.  It was uncanny.  It was though there was no walls to the eyepiece of the scope.  About a year ago I read about the Bindon Aiming Concept and watched the same video, but just sort of thought it was just another sales pitch and had never been to a shop that carried the scope.  Watch that video and let me know what you think.  Also, I guess I was asking above about what rifle to mount the scope on.  You know roughly what I own.  Regardless of what whether it is better or worse than one scope or another, it is still a fine scope, the most expensive one that I have purchased, so, I want to put it on an accurate rifle that I am going to hunt with this year.  Like I said.  Too many rifles.  That is why I said I might restock that Wby. with a synthetic with an aluminum bedding block for accuracy, although it is shooting slightly less that 1 moa with factory ammo.  Gimme some thoughts, you to pyro6999.

 

Yes, I've seen the video before -- the same video is on the Trijicon website.  What you're referring to as no apparent separation between inside the scope and outside is the effect you get when you are able to aim with both eyes open.  This has nothing to do with the scope's optical quality, but instead the reticle design.  The triangular reticle is very simple, uncluttered, and brightly lit with the fiber optics and tritium, so it is always in view by your dominant eye and your other eye is able to scan the surroundings while your dominant eye is focusing on the image through the scope.  If you've ever hunted with a compound bow, you get the same effect from using a bright fiber optic pin sight and string peep with both eyes open.  You can actually do the same thing with other scopes, it's just that that particular reticle is better suited for this style of aiming because it's simple, shaped like a pointer, and bright.

 

Don't get me wrong; I really like these scopes, mainly because of the trick reticle.  Optically, it's very good as well, but in my estimation not nearly at the level of Zeiss/S&B/Swaro/Kahles, but then again, it's half the price.  If you haven't seen it, here's SWFA's optical rankings of scopes, which seems about right to me, though from what I remember about the Accupoint, I'd probably move it up a notch or two in the rankings:

http://www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7451&PN=1

Sure, this list is somewhat subjective, but there's a good reason why certain scopes are ranked at or near the top and others are ranked at the bottom.  The middle is where you'll find the most disagreement among optics fanatics.

 

Which rifle to mount it on?... I'd personally mount your best scope on whichever rifle is your favorite and you'd use most often.  Might as well get the most enjoyment out of your purchase as possible!  To my way of thinking that type of "rapid aiming" scope would be best suited to a fairly light, well-balanced rifle that you shoot offhand well.  If you're asking for pyro O'Connor's opinion on this, I'm sure he'll tell you that whatever you do, you MUST mount it on a rifle shooting a .277" diameter projectile!

 

As for the "too many rifles" comment, remember who you're talking to here...that's like asking a cocaine addict for investment advice.  I'm an enabler, and don't believe there's such thing as having "too many rifles!"   

 

If you're getting less than 1 MOA, I believe I'd probably take the "don't fix what ain't broken" approach and leave it as-is, unless it has a beautiful wood stock and you want to have an all-weather handle to use part-time on it to preserve your stock.

 

If you want a synthetic stock with aluminum bedding block, I'd go with the HS Precision, period.  Another interesting option is this, from Accurate Innovations:

http://www.accurateinnovations.com/

You can specify the type finish you want, what style you want, as well as several different options and wood upgrades.  The Wby MK V and Vanguard are both included in their available action types.  I actually have one of these on order right now in AAA Claro walnut.  For what you get, the prices aren't too bad.  Of course, this wouldn't be an all-weather, all-conditions stock like a synthetic, but it's nevertheless cool, and you'd have both the alum bedding block and the beauty of wood.

 



Edited by RifleDude
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 20:47

i was looking at swfa's catalog today and one of there competitors as well and they both say the trijicon scope in question here is waterproof fogproof and shockproof, and the tritium sight has a 15 yr warranty, now i will not doubt for a second that if you guys say optically its a good scope, then its safe to say it is, here is where i have an issue with it though, first its a relatively new scope, so reliability and longevity cant be officially labeled to this scope, second, it has a warranty on the tritium, which scares me a little, i guess 15 yrs is better than no years, but they know that the lamp can stay lit forever, otherwise imo they wouldnt express that, third the price on them, for another what $100 or so i can buy a new kahles kx and know for almost sure that the scope will be good as gold for a long damn time. i will still take a look at the trijicon scope when i get a chance just to see what all the fuss is about, i still need to look at the bushnell elite 4200 that i am going to be putting on my new .270 

i think i would wait a few years to buy a trijicon scope just to see if it has some bugs to work out. so heres the deal dolphin i need you to really spend some good quality time in the field under various conditions and not baby this thing so we all can see how it holds together, so in essence you are a guniea pig of sourts. good luck i hope its a good one to own my friend cant wait to hear more about it.!

They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 20:57
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

good luck i hope its a good one to own my friend cant wait to hear more about it.!

 

me too!

Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 21:17
hey my acog is built like a truck, if this one comes close should be good deal, at least it doesnt have plastic turrets. are we talkin about the one with singe post in the middle???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2007 at 21:24

well its a triangle with a post i believe orange or red take your pick.

They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
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