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Schmidt Bender scopes????? |
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shoot4fun
Optics Apprentice Joined: February/09/2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 59 |
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Posted: September/13/2007 at 21:51 |
Does Schmidt Bender outclass the other big name scopes like Zeiss or Swarovski ? I notice a big cost difference in Schmidt and the other big name scope companies. Is the difference in the clarity and low light gathering capabilities worth the extra cost ? I purchase a scope for it's low light ability and clarity. I guess what I am asking is if the Schmidt Bender that much better than the other scopes and is it worth the price difference?
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pyro6999
Optics Retard OT TITAN Joined: December/22/2006 Location: North Dakota Status: Offline Points: 22034 |
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the only thing i can say to you about this (because i have only looked through zeiss) s&b cant make a $2500 piece of crap scope and be in business for long, if something costs that much it better back it up with the goods, cause it wouldnt take long to get around this world that they are ripping people off, so i would say there must be something special about the s&b scopes not to say that zeiss swaro and kahles dont make bad scopes cause all of these companies make great scopes.
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They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead" 343 we will never forget God Bless Chris Ledoux "good ride cowboy" |
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www.technika.nu
Optics Journeyman Joined: August/02/2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 611 |
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I would say that the optical uality in Zeiss outperformes Smith u bender. Light gathering, FOV, low light capabilitys and weight.
But SuB have a far better reputation military than Zeiss/Hensoldt has and that is for it's mechanical solutions and the the adjustmensts.
I have seen new sights from both companies that never should have left the factory, so I can't personally say that SuB is mechanically better. Swarovski is behind Zeiss as well in it's optical quality so I prefer Zeiss. That said I have SuB 3-12x42, 4-16x50 Varmind and PM11 4-16x60 and I use them quite frequently. But when the light really is needed I take the Zeiss.
Regards Technika |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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shoot4fun, Depending on the model scopes you're comparing, S&B is not necessarily more expensive than Zeiss or Swaro. In fact, the Swaro Z6 is now pretty much the most expensive 30mm hunting scope you can buy. Leaving out the tactical and specialty scopes from S&B and Zeiss, Swaro across the board is the most expensive of the "big 3" in sports optics. |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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www.technika.nu
Optics Journeyman Joined: August/02/2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 611 |
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THe Z6 series and espsially the 1,7-10 is for my daylight use the most versalite scope i tested. But for nighttime, I don't think they have anything that is close to zeiss. Unfortunately do I not have that money now.........
Regards Technika Edited by www.technika.nu |
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Narrow Gap
Optics Apprentice Joined: August/16/2006 Location: Afghanistan Status: Offline Points: 135 |
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technika I will agree with you about Zeiss having the best light transmission. I have compared S&B, Swarovski PH, and the Zeiss Diavari and the Zeiss stays in the low light game a little longer than the other two.
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sakosf
Optics GrassHopper Joined: June/21/2007 Status: Offline Points: 14 |
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I have owned both and I would agree that the German made Zeiss scopes have the better glass.
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spreader
Optics Apprentice Joined: July/31/2007 Status: Offline Points: 77 |
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As far as hunting scopes are concerned - there are too many choices based on what you value in the scope. When it comes to tactical scopes
I think there are only two really good choices - Zeiss/Hensoldt and Schmidt & Bender. Some people would also say high-end Nightforce and Leupold are good choices, but my personal opinion is that S&B and Zeiss/Hensoldt really own this segment in terms of quality. Zeiss scope are designed, engineered and manufactured using glass that is designed and manufactured by Schott in Germany. Schott belongs to Zeiss. Two manufacturers in the world that have the most extensive selection of best optical glass are Schott in Germany and Ohara in Japan. Of the two Schott is the best one. Ohara is distant second. Everyone else is an "also ran" and specialty makers with niche markets. When it comes to Schmidt & Bender riflescopes though, the fact that Zeiss has superior optical glass becomes less significant for variety of reasons. Number one is that S&B designs their scopes with shooting purpose in mind. They're designed to give the shooter ability to make the shot under real world conditions, which are never perfect. Therefore the coating that they use on lenses as well as lenses themselves are designed with that in mind. They're quite known for excellent transmission of light in blue spectrum for example, making it much easier to see your target in early morning or after sunset before the stars come out. The glass that S&B uses is made on their factory in Hungary (http://www.schmidt-bender.hu/start.html). The best thing about S&B I think is the all inclusive design. They don't design the scope to be just excellent optically. It also needs to have the right "interface" - in other words the reticle, knobs, quality of manual and so forth. When you buy S&B, you buy something that had been designed to be really useable for a shooter. In terms of mechanical design, variation of S&B PMII LP scope has won USMC contract, beating all other competitors, which is a pretty good indication of ruggedness. Price was not taken into direct consideration by the way. There is one issue that is worth noting though. A Finnish gun magazine published very extensive test report couple years ago where they tested many different scopes and found that Schmidt & Bender had slight shift in their reticle adjustment. Zeiss reticle adjustment is perfectly square - adjusting elevation never has any effect on windage. With S&B they found that adjusting elevation may shift reticle laterally, by up to 0.3mrad. That's 30cm at 1000 meters, which might be significant for certain purposes. They have used special optical testing equipment to find that out, so it's not a result of shooting in the field where other conditions may influence the result. It's entirely possible since then that S&B improved their reticle adjustment system, but I'm not aware of it. When it comes to customer service though, don't expect either Zeiss or S&B to really help you in US if you have a complicated question or problem. If it's something simple, such as trivial repair or trivial question - they can help you. If it's something more complicated - it would have to go through Germany, which with Zeiss would be faster. You can expect wait times of 7-15 days to get any response from S&B in Germany if you have any question for example and you sent your question in English. I guess if you ask in German the answer could be faster, but don't know for sure. Despite all this however, as an overall package, after thinking about it for a long time I decided to get myself PMII instead of Zeiss Tactical or Hensoldt. |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13182 |
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S&B scopes are certainly very good. Whether they are worth the money is a personal choice, certainly. I think they are well designed scopes with excellent glass and mechanicals. As an overall optical/mechanical package, Zeiss may be a touch better due to, generally, wider field of view and larger adjustment range. However, I think S&B's illumination scheme is better designed.
That having been said, if I were in the market for a high dollar tactical scope, I would get the SN3 from US Optics. For that kind of money I expect a scope precisely configured for what I want. Only US Optics offers that kind of customization and their customer service is beyond reproach. As far as clarity and resolution are concerned, any difference you may find between top brands like Zeiss/Hensoldt, S&B and US Optics is absolutely inconsequential. All are very good. The only difference that matters is how well a particular scope fits your specific application. For this kind of money, it better be a perfect fit. S&B Short Dot may be the one scope without an obvious equivalent from other makers (at least until I get some time behind a Swaro Z6i 1-6x24 with illuminated circle dot reticle and Kahles CSX 1.1-4x24). ILya |
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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I agree with Koshkin, SN3 is the way to go, given unlimited budget and timeframe. Having said that, I want an S&B PMII eventually -but have an SN3 on the way.
Also, for spreader: if Schott is the main contributing factor, IOR should be on your list. Their glass comes from the same place as Zeiss and S&B and their scopes are great values at a significnatly lower price point.
S&B makes good stuff, among the very best; but "among" and "the" aren't quite equivalent. As others have said, circumstances and needs dictate what is best at that time - and it may not be best at another time.
And damn I need to spell check these things! Edited by Rancid Coolaid |
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11425
Maybe the Marines should have went with the SN-3's?? |
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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Cheap, thanx for that. I don't visit or post there so I was unaware of those issues (most of the guys I know are out now and doing other things - or back in Iraq or Afghanistan as private security contractors.)
That will inlfuence my decision to invest in an S&B. Granted, the kinda life a scope lives in that field is very different from what it would live in my gunsafe and with ocasional use. The field is an accelerated lifespan test - no question.
And yea, SN3 might have been the way to go. I'm sure S&B discoutned the hell outta those guys whereas USO probably wouldn't.
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Well, to say I was severely disappointed when S&B got the Marine contract instead of USO would be an understatement....
I'm sure the good people that chose the PM II's for the Marine snipers went with the optic that they thought would meet the needs of the 8541's in the field. But it hurt me just the same.
I just thought I would pass this thread on.....I can't help but wonder if the SN-3's would have given better service though..... |
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spreader
Optics Apprentice Joined: July/31/2007 Status: Offline Points: 77 |
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First of all, scopes that USMC gets are finished by Premier Reticles in Virginia.
In other words, *complete* assembly happens there. If there is a quality control issue, it's right there in Virginia, not at S&B in Germany. Second thing is, USMC is paying slightly over $1700 for each of those new USMC S&B Gen2 MilDot scopes. Price was not an issue, see original req here: http://www.cbd-net.com/index.php/search/show/794618 Third thing is - in the field, even the best design can fail. Unertls had lots of those and remained in service for decades. As far as US Optics goes - I still don't understand why would anyone make a MilDot scope with MOA clicks. Makes no sense whatsoever, you waste time doing conversion. For sniper in the field it's a difference between making a shot and missing it. SN3 may be good on paper. It didn't win the contract though. |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13182 |
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You can get an SN3 with any kind of clicks you want, be it metric or MOA and a nice variety of reticles. Those are all standard options.
ILya |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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That's kinda weak there spreader, don't you think?? So it's PR fault now?? S&B's still liable, at least in my opinion, because THEY sub'd it out to PR. That dog won't hunt, my friend!!
Yeah, The Dark One beat me to it but USO offers a MOA reticle that compliments the MOA clicks perfectly. I know because I had one. USO probably wouldn't have had to sub it out to PR if they had the contract.....
As Rancid stated, out there in the boonies with these people, (I assume) this gear takes a real beating. No one's stuff is immune from failure and according to the thread I posted, "they" have taken measures to rectify the problems.
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spreader
Optics Apprentice Joined: July/31/2007 Status: Offline Points: 77 |
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koshkin,
Didn't know SN3 can be made any way the customer wants. Thanks for correction. cheaptrick, Yes, it's PR fault, not S&B. AFAIK US Army and Marine regulations call for most contracted work to be done in US. S&B had no choice but to contract it out to someone local in USA. Since Premier Reticles owns the patent on Gen2 MilDot (and they're the ones that supply it for S&B to install in their other scopes), PR was the best logical choice. If you recall Beretta had to build a factory in Maryland to produce their 92FS here for US Army contract. If PR took the steps to fix the problem, it's certainly good news for Marine out in the field risking their lives to protect ours. It doesn't however change the fact that it was problem with PR manufacturing/assembly/QA control and not S&B. |
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cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
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Spreader, we'll have to agree to disagree with this one, my Brother. The more you explain the situation, the more I think it sucks.
S&B won the contract...Right?
Most contracted work needs to done CONUS, according to you and I'm sure your right. Excellent point about Beretta. Touché.
S&B doesn't have any QC people running around there checking these things before they go out from PR?!?!? S&B cashes the checks and gets to strut around cuz they got the contract, but yet hold no liability?? Really?? Wow!
I agree that according to the gent in the post I provided PR seems to have had some issues of sorts, but to totally exonerate Schmidt and Bender seems crazy. At least to me... Peace! |
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Duce
Optics Master Joined: September/19/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1231 |
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I get the impression that some believe the government buys things like we do as individuals, based on quality & price. Many government purchases are determined by who has what lobbyist or friends & relatives in Washington or who employees what retired general or senator on the company board. I have seen this apply in large purchases & small. The point is that we cannot take a government purchase as evidence of "best" quality.
Duce
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Duce
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spreader
Optics Apprentice Joined: July/31/2007 Status: Offline Points: 77 |
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Duce,
I agree with that point. In this particular case though, I doubt that's what happened. Marines wanted variable power scope. They wanted it fast, they wanted something that works rightaway. It's under these conditions that the best stuff is usually procured. Lobbyist/relative/friend kind of scheme usually works on things that take a long time to procure. That Beretta contract I'm quite certain had a big dose of that. |
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