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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 14:49

Originally posted by Blackbird Blackbird wrote:

I'm no optic expert, but I have to disagree with 2 scopes in particular vs. the Leupold Mark 4, and VX III. The Bushnell Elite 4200 has a BRIGHTER sight picture than the 2 mentioned Lupy's. But, 1. it has less adjustment of moa in elevation and windage. 2. It has less reticle choices than either Lupy. 3. I believe the warranty is for 1 year replacement on the 4200, vs. lifetime for the Lupy's. Everything above pertains to the Nikon Monarch, except I don't see the sight picture any brighter with the Monarch. (The resolution might be better) And now Nikon has the forever warranty. As far as durability, someone has to explain to me why an Elite 4200 & Monarch are more durable than a Mark 4, or VX III.

 

I don't really know how to reply to your inquires because I don't completely follow what you are saying.  Are you disputing that the 4200 is brighter or agreeing?  The 4200 is easily brighter and shaper than the Leupold.  It is the fact that Leupold has so many options that got the Mark 4 and VX-III to the level they are on the list as well as their industry setting customer service. The Monarch listed on the scale is the new Monarch.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 15:53

Originally posted by Focus Focus wrote:

...................... I will say that when this site rates or ranks scopes I tend to find it way more inline with my own personal experience than any other site. 


     focus

 

Most people do and its because we don't pull any punches and don't have a hidden agenda......we call a spade a spade.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 15:56
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

One interesting thing worthy of note that this scale highlights is what a truly exceptional value the Swarovski and Kahles 1" tube scopes represent if you're in the market for a high end scope.  The fact that the Kahles and Swaro 1" scopes are ranked right in there with the "big 3" 30mm scopes and the fact that "Swarovski PH and American" was lumped together as one category on the list validates the observations of many of us that optically, they are in the same league as the best 30mm scopes.  Their only real shortcoming is the fact they have 3X zoom rather than 4X zoom of their 30mm cousins.  No, they aren't inexpensive in absolute terms, but when considering the scopes they compete with optically, they are a bargain!

 

 

The 1" Swarovski and 30mm PH use the exact same glass and coatings, the 1" are assembled here which is less expensive and there is no duty (18-20%) because only parts are imported.....this is why they are such a value FYI.  Same for the Kahles.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 16:28

Originally posted by gman1332 gman1332 wrote:

In my opinion, the T-bone scale is a far more accurate representation of the true scale.  When inside sales reps start ranking scopes, the scale becomes skewed due to bias from being paid higher commissions by certian manufacturers and to the push money and incentives given to them to sell certain brand scopes over another.

 

Here is the T-Bone scale that he created:

10 - Zeiss VM/V, Swarovski PH, Schmidt & Bender

    9  - Swarovski PH, Schmidt & Bender

    8  - Swarovski A-Line

    7  - Zeiss Conquest, Kahles

    6  - Leupold VX III

    5  -Leupold Vari-X III

    4  -

    3  -

    2  -

    1  - BSA

 

 

I took his idea and turned it into this on my own back in 2005:

tbone rating scale 

 

   10 - Zeiss VM/V, Swarovski PH, Schmidt & Bender

    9  - Swarovski PH, Swarovski A-Line, Schmidt & Bender

    8  - Swarovski A-Line, Kahles, IOR

    7  - Zeiss Conquest, Kahles, Elite 4200, IOR

    6  - Leupold VX III, Weaver Grand Slam, Nikon Monarch, Bushnell Elite 4200, Burris Euro & Black Diamond

    5  - Leupold Vari-X III, Weaver Grand Slam, Nikon Monarch, Burris Signature Select

    4  - Burris Fullfield II, Bushnell Elite 3200, Simmons AETEC, Leupold VX-II, Nikon Buckmaster

    3  - Simmons, Redfield, Rifleman, Leupold VX-I, Nikon Buckmaster

    2  - Simmons, BSA, Tasco

    1  - BSA, Tasco

 

The evolution of the t-bone scale was done exclusively by our sales staff, owners, customer service and senior OT members and here it is.

 

2007 T-Bone Riflescope Optical Rating Scale

 

10 - Swarovski Z6, Zeiss Victory

9.5 - Kahles CL MultiZero

9 - Schmidt & Bender, Swarovski PH & American, Zeiss Classic

8.5 - X.O.T.I.C.

8 - Kahles KX

7.5 - Zeiss Conquest

7 - Leupold VX-7, IOR Valdada

6.5 - Bushnell Elite 4200, Nightforce, Nikon Monarch

6 - Leupold Mark 4 VX III & VX-L, Weaver Grand Slam

5.5 - Burris Black Diamond XTR & Euro

5 - Burris Signature Select, Meopta, Pentax Lightseeker, Super Sniper, Trijicon

4.5 - Sightron

4 - Bushnell Elite 3200, Leupold VX-II, Simmons Aetec (pre-Meade)

3.5 - Nikon Buckmaster

3 -  Burris Fullfield II, Leupold Rifleman & VX-I, Millet, Mueller, Redfield USA

2.5 - Leatherwood, Simmons, Swift

2 - ATN, Tasco

1.5 - Barska, Leapers

1 - BSA, NcStar

 

So it's kind of amusing when you say, "In my opinion, the T-bone scale is a far more accurate representation of the true scale."

 

You're other comments are not even worthy of a response.  You obviously don't know much about me or my company Mr. Lindsay.  You are new here and started off with zero

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 16:36
chris

i called swarovski in rhode island today and they told me thay even though they own kahles, they are the "2nd-tier" line. they also told me that getting kahles to service something in a timely manner was hard to do because they dont work on any kahles stuff in the USA. it all has to go back to austria. her quote was that it could take "months" for a repair. that really dissuaded me from kahles especially coming from their sister company. have you heard different regarding kahels????
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 16:46
Originally posted by gman1332 gman1332 wrote:

................ I've been a manufacturer's sales rep in 5 industries over the last 20 years ..............

 

That pretty much says it all.

 

 

Originally posted by gman1332 gman1332 wrote:

So to answer your question, take for example the Bushnell 4200, which in my opinion is the best scope for the money in the industry.  This scope is listed in both tables as a model of a particular manufacturer.  Since most manufactures have a good, better, best type of line-up  in order to appeal to different income levels and needs, this "model" of Bushnell is listed.  However, Simmons, Millett, Meopta, Sightron just to name a few are listed by manufacturer name only, not by model. 

 

Like I stated in the first post, we do not want to dilute the scale with every model from every mfg.  Bushnell is unique in the fact that they offer the low end crap all the way up to the Elite 4200 series.  As most people are not concerned where the Sportview ranks....we left it off.  The other brands you mention like Simmons, Millet and Meopta pretty much just have one level.  Sightron is a relatively new company that we did not feel was worthy of having all its brands listed at this time as to not dilute the scale.

 

Originally posted by gman1332 gman1332 wrote:

Such as the case with Meopta, being ranked 7.5 as a model in the t-bone scale and then a 4 as a manufacturer in the newest ranking.  Apparently, when customer support and others get involved in the process, Meopta is discounted 3 full levels.  This doesn't make sense.  I'm not trying to pick apart the ranking but it needs to be one or the other, models within a particular manufacturer or just the manufacturer rankings. Leupold is another great case in point.  Most of their models are listed and cluttering up the newest ranking and yet they are not cluttering up the t-bone ranking since models are being compared.  As a consumer, I would rather see the models listed and make my choice from that instead of just a manufacturer ranking.   I will stick with the t-bone scale since models are listed and this for me consitutes a true ranking scale.  More apples are compared with apples in the t-bone scale.  These are my observations backing up my statement.

 

I'm the one that put Meopta on the t-bone scale as well as just about every other scope on there.  I put it at a 5.  Koshkin put the Meostar at a 7.5 on his.  You are getting confused probably because there is no one single t-bone scale accept for the one he originally made after looking at six different scopes.  Perhaps we should not have kept calling our scale on his thread a T-bone scale........this is another reason as to why I move my scale off his thread and when I did I dropped the .5 numbers and added a 0 to give the scale one more position of seperation that it needed in the middle range and this caused Meopta to go to the 4 position.  Have you ever dealt with Meopta????



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 16:55
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

 

............... I've had 4 different sales jobs and I also deal with sales reps nearly every day in my current job.  My point is that you don't know that SWFA is intentionally skewing the rankings to their benefit, and since they are our hosts who provide this forum for us, that's perhaps not the most prudent thing to openly say.  I've bought several optics from them on site and have found their dealings to be nothing but honorable, and they've never tried to sway my decision of one optic vs. another.  They are also entitled to their opinions as well, and may place heavier emphasis on certain criteria that you or I wouldn't weigh as heavily.

 

I deal with mfg. reps (check cashers is what I call them) every day too and would never allow any of them to have anything to do with my business much less have any input on this scale.  For the most part they have only one interest in mind and it isn't mine.  We don't have sales reps working here, we are a small family owned and operated business....when you call you are speaking with family or life long friends (some have been here 20 years and one has been working for us longer than I've been alive).  So to mention us in the same breath as a sales rep is an insult to me.  Apologies to any sales reps this may offend as there are exceptions.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 17:01

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:


VX-7 I have only seen briefly, so time will tell, but from what I have seen, it is a very good scope that is priced too high.  It would be very competitive if it was priced about 30% lower.  As it is I do not expect to buy one until Leupold realizes that they messed up and we start getting various "one time 40% off deals" and such.  Also, 34mm tube in a hunting scope is a mistake, I think.  They should have come out with 30mm hunting sopes and 34mm tactical scopes.  Time will tell, of course.

ILya

 

Don't hold your breath ILya!

 

Only the VX-7L models are 34mm and they all have 50 or 56mm objectives which already makes them pretty heavy.  These are marketed more toward the long range bench / varmint crowd.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 17:19

Originally posted by SAKO75 SAKO75 wrote:

chris

i called swarovski in rhode island today and they told me thay even though they own kahles, they are the "2nd-tier" line. they also told me that getting kahles to service something in a timely manner was hard to do because they dont work on any kahles stuff in the USA. it all has to go back to austria. her quote was that it could take "months" for a repair. that really dissuaded me from kahles especially coming from their sister company. have you heard different regarding kahels????

 

This could be another thread all to its own.  Conact Kahles in Austria and tell them what S.O.N.A. said.  I've covered their history in detail many times on OT (hit the search).  The Reader's Digest version is:

 

Kahles is the world's oldest scope maker dating back to 1898, they even had the first CNC machine in Austria.  When the last family member was on his death bed with no heirs he approached Swarovski to see if they would purchase his company and keep it going (they had some employees that had been there over 50 years).  Swarovski agreed.  At that time Swarovski did not have a scope, so they re-branded the Kahles line and as Kahles would turn out new ideas and products Swarovski would put their name on them and Kahles' name on the previous years product.  Kahles has always been the blood, sweat and tears behind what people assumed was the Swarovski scope.  Swarovski is a marketing machine much like Leupold but they went too far one year and attempted to market the Kahles line (when it was new to the U.S. market) in their ads like this:

Kahles

A division of Swarovski

This was the ultimate slap in the face insult to Kahles.  Kahles demanded that it be stopped and suggested that Swarovski should market themselves as a division of Kahles.  The family feud carried on and on for years until finally Kahles reached their boiling point and stopped sharing technologies with Swarovski.  They worked secretly behind the scenes on all of the current Kahles products and waited to release them until they had a clear separation agreement in writing.  Once that day finally came, Kahles launched the CSX illumination which is the most advanced illumination technology in the world, they followed up with the Multi-Zero and the CL line and now the KX.  The current Kahles out performs the PH and American series but you they have a hard time convincing the public of this because of budget constraints.  Swarovski has the crystal side backing them.

 

To say there is a bitter rivalry between the two companies would be an understatement at this point.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 17:29
thanks,
 I guess my question now would be what have you heard or seen from kahles in regards to their service in support? If they have been around a long time, they must have some kind of record of service....

the nitwit answering the phone at Kahles for customer service is nice but doesnt know her product... she didnt comfort the potential buyer (me) and kind of inferred they were a low cost "almost" equal option to swarovski!

Do you think they are as good or better?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 17:39
Originally posted by Chris Farris Chris Farris wrote:

Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:


VX-7 I have only seen briefly, so time will tell, but from what I have seen, it is a very good scope that is priced too high.  It would be very competitive if it was priced about 30% lower.  As it is I do not expect to buy one until Leupold realizes that they messed up and we start getting various "one time 40% off deals" and such.  Also, 34mm tube in a hunting scope is a mistake, I think.  They should have come out with 30mm hunting sopes and 34mm tactical scopes.  Time will tell, of course.

ILya

 

Don't hold your breath ILya!

 

Only the VX-7L models are 34mm and they all have 50 or 56mm objectives which already makes them pretty heavy.  These are marketed more toward the long range bench / varmint crowd.



Thanks for the tip, Chris.

I am most certainly not going to hold my breath waiting for anything for Leupold to lower prices (I would need lung capacity of a whale for that).  I just do not think Leupold will do well with their current VX-7 pricing.

As for the VX-7L models, I find them absolutely baffling.  Long range bench/varmint crowd, in my experience, is perfectly comfortable mounting the scope a little higher, so the cutout at the bottom of the objective lens does not make much sense.  The stocks used for this type of shooting are, I think, set up differently and higher scope mounting is not a problem.  As for the need for a 34mm tube, as I have said in the past, I can see the need for extra rugged tubes and additional real estate for overbuilt mechanicals in tactical scopes, but not in these.  As an update to the Mark 4 line, 34mm tubes would work fine.

On Leupold's website, they claim that 34mm tube allows for more adjustment range (which is true), but I could not find any specs for the VX-7L scopes.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 18:34
Originally posted by Chris Farris Chris Farris wrote:

Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

 

............... I've had 4 different sales jobs and I also deal with sales reps nearly every day in my current job.  My point is that you don't know that SWFA is intentionally skewing the rankings to their benefit, and since they are our hosts who provide this forum for us, that's perhaps not the most prudent thing to openly say.  I've bought several optics from them on site and have found their dealings to be nothing but honorable, and they've never tried to sway my decision of one optic vs. another.  They are also entitled to their opinions as well, and may place heavier emphasis on certain criteria that you or I wouldn't weigh as heavily.

 

I deal with mfg. reps (check cashers is what I call them) every day too and would never allow any of them to have anything to do with my business much less have any input on this scale.  For the most part they have only one interest in mind and it isn't mine.  We don't have sales reps working here, we are a small family owned and operated business....when you call you are speaking with family or life long friends (some have been here 20 years and one has been working for us longer than I've been alive).  So to mention us in the same breath as a sales rep is an insult to me.  Apologies to any sales reps this may offend as there are exceptions.

 

Chris,

I was defending your company in my posts.  My reference to "sales reps" was in response to gman's post, where he talked about salespeople in general.  I'm very familiar with your business, since I've dropped off several thousand dollars in the past few months alone behind the little door with the scope reticle logo on it -- so much so that I've had you change my email contact to my work address so my wife isn't constantly reminded of my purchases!  I also purchased several optics from you when you were operating behind the house in De Soto.  I've also referred several people to you, all of which ended up buying optics from you.  Please don't confuse my comments with gman's.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 18:42
Originally posted by Chris Farris Chris Farris wrote:

...the 1" are assembled here which is less expensive and there is no duty (18-20%) because only parts are imported.....this is why they are such a value FYI.  Same for the Kahles.

 

Has something recently changed in this regard?  My Swaro AV scopes say "Made in Austria" on them and their magazine ads and owners manuals say all their scopes and binos are manufactured entirely in Absam, Austria.  The same goes for Kahles.  I have 2 AH series scopes, both of which also have "Made in Austria" labels on them and one of their people in Vienna told me in an email inquiry that their 1" scopes are made in Austria as well.  Zeiss Conquest scopes have parts made in Germany, with assembly in the US, and they are labeled Made in USA.

 

Also, I keep hearing that Swarovski and Kahles parted ways, yet when I recently sent a Kahles binocular in to get the rubber armoring replaced, I was instructed to send it to, and the repairs were done by, S.O.N.A.  Kahles US customer service center still has the same address as S.O.N.A., 1 Slater Rd, Cranston, RI.  I realize they have separate manufacturing locations, but their US service center is still in the same location.  What's up with that?

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 19:31
Originally posted by Chris Farris Chris Farris wrote:

Originally posted by Blackbird Blackbird wrote:

I'm no optic expert, but I have to disagree with 2 scopes in particular vs. the Leupold Mark 4, and VX III. The Bushnell Elite 4200 has a BRIGHTER sight picture than the 2 mentioned Lupy's. But, 1. it has less adjustment of moa in elevation and windage. 2. It has less reticle choices than either Lupy. 3. I believe the warranty is for 1 year replacement on the 4200, vs. lifetime for the Lupy's. Everything above pertains to the Nikon Monarch, except I don't see the sight picture any brighter with the Monarch. (The resolution might be better) And now Nikon has the forever warranty. As far as durability, someone has to explain to me why an Elite 4200 & Monarch are more durable than a Mark 4, or VX III.

 

I don't really know how to reply to your inquires because I don't completely follow what you are saying.  Are you disputing that the 4200 is brighter or agreeing?  The 4200 is easily brighter and shaper than the Leupold.  It is the fact that Leupold has so many options that got the Mark 4 and VX-III to the level they are on the list as well as their industry setting customer service. The Monarch listed on the scale is the new Monarch.

 

I am agreeing that the 4200 is brighter, but to my eyes it isn't any sharper than a Mark 4 8.5-25X 50mm. LR/T,  or a VX III 8.5-25X 50mm. LRT.  And the older Monarch that I had, (5.5-16X ?) didn't seem any brighter or clearer (to me) than my VX III 8.5-25X 50mm. LRT. Maybe what I'm trying to say is, I feel the Leupold Mark 4 and VX III LRT models have more "positives" going for them than the 4200 or the "older" Monarch on the scale rating chart. But then again, I am looking at this from a 1000 yard target shooters point of view, where Leupold LRT and Nightforce scopes dominate. I, by no means, have any optical credentials, and I didn't write this to piss anyone off, its just 1 mans opinion. 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 19:51

Originally posted by Chris Farris Chris Farris wrote:

   

1. I agree NF should move up, but not to the Kahles / Swarovski level.  I moved them up one level.

2. This is the new 4x erector Monarch, totally different scope than the one it replaced.  They may end up above Conquest in a year or so.

3. Have you seen the VX-7 and compared it with a NF?

 

As you noted yourself, you are a huge NF fan and rooting for the home team....so to speak.  They have a fine scope, their line is not very deep, the illumination is not as good as their competition and their custom service is notorious for not be easy to work with.

 

We are not just rating scopes that we sell and definately not downgrading any that we don't sell.  This healthy discussion is precisely why I started this thread.  Thanks for the input Koshkin and R.C.

 

I added USO too.

 

Why would it take a year or so for the New Monarch to overtake the Conquest?  Is that due to it being new and needs to be in everyones hands for a period of time?  However, I'm reading between the lines and the New Monarch is above the Conquest, but needs to be on the market for one to be able to make that statement.

 

Also I have heard horror stories about Nikons CS, so is that going to change?

 

Ps. Been reading for awhile, and decided to take part in this great forum.

 

Ant

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/08/2007 at 20:21
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

 

Chris,

I was defending your company in my posts.  ..................  Please don't confuse my comments with gman's.

 

 

I know RifleDude, my post was referring to gman's comments.  Sorry if that was not clear .

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2007 at 05:35

  

Quote

 

Why would it take a year or so for the New Monarch to overtake the Conquest?  Is that due to it being new and needs to be in everyones hands for a period of time?  However, I'm reading between the lines and the New Monarch is above the Conquest, but needs to be on the market for one to be able to make that statement.

 

Also I have heard horror stories about Nikons CS, so is that going to change?



Are the new monarchs out and being evaluated yet? Are you just expecting them to hang with the conquest optically or will the higher rating be the improved eye relief, constant eye relief, and 4fold power increase? I'm real curious about just where the monarch will place optically compared to the conquest. Perhaps I'm rushing the process if they aren't even available for comparing yet in asking these questions. Has anybody actually seen and looked thru one?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2007 at 09:00

The new Monarchs are available....From what I have read about the new Monarchs and what SWFA has listed on  there website discribing the new Monarchs, plus I know of one dist that has some of the Morach X's, the 1" Monarchs instock.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2007 at 15:47

I was doing some shooting last enening and I had both my Millett TRS-1 and the Burris FF2 with me so I did a little comparing and the Millett was brighter and had better resolution at distance. I recieved the FF2 as a gift last year and it is one of the newer ones. This was just my observation and I was a little suprised what I saw. Has anyone else had similiar findings? I was disappointed the FF2 did not do better since most of the post indicate it above the Millett TRS

 

Thanks  for posting the scale Chris

 

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Joined: October/01/2003
Location: Texas
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/09/2007 at 16:19

Originally posted by SAKO75 SAKO75 wrote:

thanks,
 I guess my question now would be what have you heard or seen from kahles in regards to their service in support? If they have been around a long time, they must have some kind of record of service....

the nitwit answering the phone at Kahles for customer service is nice but doesnt know her product... she didnt comfort the potential buyer (me) and kind of inferred they were a low cost "almost" equal option to swarovski!

Do you think they are as good or better?

 

To be honest I don't recall ever having to send in a Kahles for service.

 

Kahles is still owned by Swarovski, so they use the same facility in Rhode Island to land, distribute and service both product lines.  You are not the only one that has not had a positive experience when contacting Swarovski of North America (SONA).  They seem to have an elitist attitude and can be short with you at times (I think it's just because they're Yankees ).

 

I think when you compare apples to apples that Kahles offers a better product.

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