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Cheap Rifles

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Poll Question: Are cheap rifles as good as more costly ones
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3 [7.89%]
34 [89.47%]
1 [2.63%]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote martin3175 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 11:42

I have 3 Mark V's (  two 300 Wby's and a 340 Wby ). I absolutely love the confidence,accuracy, and the short bolt throw they offer. Point and shoot, and without fail they exceed their 1.5 MOA guarantee. They weren't cheap , although certainly less than for example a Jarrett ,Sisk , or Hill Country , etc. However, I also have 3 Wallyworld Weatherby Vanguards . Calibers include a 30-06,  338 Win mag, and a 308 youth variant. Again, each easily exceeds Weatherby's accuracy guarantee, but lacks the quick bolt throw and smoothness of the Mk V. The shorter barrel has its advantages at times, and despite a somewhat lesser comparative  finish quality, for the money,  I would rate them a better "value" than the the Mk V action ( still lovem' though ). In the real world its the first shot that almost always is the killing shot, and your game will never know if you spent $400 or $4000.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 12:49
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Hi Ted and JB, I put that winky on the M700 out there for D. We all have our favorites and that is what makes the world go round.

D is THE Weatherby guy around here, after all. I'm not a big fan of the fat bolt myself but I have hunted with a Mark V .300 Wby before and I do have a fondness for it as a hunting rifle. For that reason I will get one one of these days.

As for the Stolle and other actions I see at the club, to each their own. I hunt and shoot service rifle. Those actions have excellent machining and are finely fitted. I just have no use for them in the cedars or the open woods.

I have done sighting in for hunters at our club and I have shot many different rifles. As for accuracy, at any given time, a Savage will shoot with a Wby will shoot with a Remy, Win, Sako and .........take your pick. Everyone knows about opions and sphincters.

 

Good points.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 14:02
i am only picky about calibers offered to tell you the truth, when it comes to who's making it yeah im not buying a weatherby mark v or a sako or a kimber cause i cannot afford it, but if its between browning remington ruger savge i really feel confident that whom evers gun i purchase, it wont be a piece of crap that falls apart after two seasons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 14:21
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

That is funny that you mention that.  Last night, I got out two Mark Vs, a new and old and did that with a blue magic marker.  All 9 lug marked off evenly with 2 cycles.  When looking at the design of the receiver and bolt, there are three gas ports for escaping gases in the case of a catasrophic head seperation and as far as strength, in addition to the 9 lugs, which were not only created for strength, but for a 54 degree bolt turn (shortest in the industry), there are 3 rings of steel and I should add substantial amount of steel protecting seperation of the receiver.  Look at a Wby. Mark V action and the massive amount of steel and size of the receiver where the cartridge sits as compared to any other action.  To handle the pressures of a 460 Wby. magnum, which approachs those of a 700 nitro express, it has to be strong.

 

First, a 3 lug action has the same 120 deg spacing as the 9 lug action, which permits approx the same bolt lift of around 60 degrees, depending on the width of the lug and orientation of the bolt when closed.  If all 9 lugs are actually making full contact with the receiver abutments on your MK Vs, you have exceedingly rare examples.  Make sure you're talking about the actual bearing faces of the lugs (looking straight at you if you had the bolt handle toward your face, the bolt face away from you, and you're looking down the bolt body), not the lug o.d. or any other surface of the lugs.  9 small lugs is no stronger than 3 large lugs.

 

The Mk V has a M16 style extractor which means that the bolt face has been cut to accomodate the extractor.  In the event of catastrophic case head separation, it would not fare as well as a Rem 700 because the high pressure gases would follow the extractor cut out the side of the bolt and create assymetrical forces exerted on the receiver, which can blow it apart in certain circumstances.  I've seen a couple such examples of exactly this happening.  It isn't a true "3 ring" design like the Rem 700 because the inner "ring" (the bolt face) has the extractor cut.  In a true enclosed bolt face design, there is no path for the gases to go except out the barrel, because the extractor is contained entirely inside the bolt face, not cut through the side.  Anytime you cut through the bolt face to accommodate an extractor, you weaken it.

 

The wall thickness of a Wby reciever is no thicker than any other action designed for magnum cartridges.  The reason the MK V action is so massive is because of the large bolt diameter due to the fact the bolt diameter is the same as the lug diameter.  Although the .460 Wby has a lot of kinetic energy and recoil, it actually doesn't create as much peak chamber pressure as some of the ultra mags.  There are many actions chambered for the .460 and rounds of similar performance, including several Mauser style CRF 2-lug actions.

Actually, the extractor slot is not cut, it was forged and therefore and integral part of the design of the bolt, which does not impart any weakness.  The actual design of the Mark V action, of which the bolt is part of, is designed to withstand 200,000 cup.  There is no other bolt action designed to accomadate that much pressure.  That has actually been reproduced by independent labs.  Also, reloading data, with respect to pressures, are far lower than for Wby. loaded ammunition.  It is not unusual that Norma loaded Wby. ammo to approach 85,000 to 100,000 cpu.  That is why my Sierra loading manual never lists pressures for Wby. cartridges.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 15:32

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i am only picky about calibers offered to tell you the truth, when it comes to who's making it yeah im not buying a weatherby mark v or a sako or a kimber cause i cannot afford it, but if its between browning remington ruger savge i really feel confident that whom evers gun i purchase, it wont be a piece of crap that falls apart after two seasons.

pyro6999, you know me, I have never purchased one Mark V brand new.  They may have never been shot, but were not brand new from the gunshop.  But like you, any of the others above I love, especially the Savage and I have bought quite a few of those lately, brand new.  Now talking about an action, despite the lack of close tolerances, when one of their Varminters can shoot sub-one half minute groups out of the box with premium ammo or hand loads and can extend that accuracy to 500 plus yards, essentially duplicating what people are spending mega bucks on bench rest rifles with custom actions, one must ask, what is the need for those close tolerances.  Someone is going to answer, longevity.  But, I will bet that the average bench rest shooter is much like any hobbyist and changes things constantly to try to find perfection.  Savage, when it comes to accuracy, is close to it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 15:46
im not a huge fan of buying used guns the only times i buy used guns is when they are pre64 m70's and rem 788's to much of an investment for me to say look at that 30-06 it looks nice and the price is ok, but in the end i get somebody else's problems, but of course you can also buy a new gun thats a lemon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 16:20
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Actually, the extractor slot is not cut, it was forged and therefore and integral part of the design of the bolt, which does not impart any weakness.  The actual design of the Mark V action, of which the bolt is part of, is designed to withstand 200,000 cup.  There is no other bolt action designed to accomadate that much pressure.  That has actually been reproduced by independent labs.  Also, reloading data, with respect to pressures, are far lower than for Wby. loaded ammunition.  It is not unusual that Norma loaded Wby. ammo to approach 85,000 to 100,000 cpu.  That is why my Sierra loading manual never lists pressures for Wby. cartridges.

 

HOW the slot was put there isn't the point, it's the fact it's there.  It provides a pathway for hot, high pressure escaping gas to be directed out of the chamber, and they have to go somewhere, which means in the forward part of the action where it can potentially blow the action apart.  And, by the way, the slot is indeed cut.  You cannot forge a tiny slot.  Forging is a pounding operation where metal is shaped by hydraulic rams and is used for rough forming only.  All the finish work on the action is machined.  The extractor slot is milled into the bolt the same as the slot for the bolt guide is, and for that matter the material removed around the locking lugs is also relieved by machining in the finishing stages of the bolt.  There is no other practical way to do this.

 

As for pressures, the standard SAAMI chamber pressure for factory .460 Wby ammo is in the neighborhood of 65,000.  The MK V action is reportedly designed to handle the 200,000 c.u.p. (according to Weatherby), but several of the custom actions, which you were comparing the MK V to, will handle 1.5 times that due to superior materials and heat treatment.  However, in the event of case rupture, there is no safer design than a completely enclosed bolt face like the Rem 700 and others like it.  Again, though, it's really a moot point because any action is designed with a large safety margin so that it will more than handle the pressures and forces generated by any cartridge it was designed for, as long as common sense is applied to load data.  AND, any barreled action will blow up if the max pressures are exceeded, there's an obstruction in the barrel, or for some reason a case shoulder was set back too far, causing excess headspace.

Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 16:39
i think my 300wsm makes that kind of pressure, 65000 that is let me go grab my book to double check.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 16:41
Yes, the Ultra Mags and the WSMs are capable of generating similar pressure numbers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 16:45
yeah i just checked my books, i gotta funny story about ultra mags i must tell, cause it seemed funny at the time, sat. i think i was watching the outdoor channel or the sportsman channel one of the two anyways jim "dont call me dumbo" zumbo was on a mulie hunt in eastern montana and he brought shells for a 300 ultra mag and accidentally brought his .338 ultra mag which imo both choices are way overkill, but anyways he had to send a guide into town to try and find a box of .338 ultra mag shells and when the guide got back they did some spot and stock and found a buck that old jimmy liked and it was in the bottom of a ravine and that poor deer got killed extra dead dropped it right there with that cannon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucznik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 17:26

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

 ... anyways jim "dont call me dumbo" zumbo was on a mulie hunt in eastern montana and he brought shells for a 300 ultra mag and accidentally brought his .338 ultra mag... he had to send a guide into town to try and find a box of .338 ultra mag shells.

 

 

That's way too funny!!!! 

 

 

 

 

 

It does make me wonder though; How does that happen? 

 

I mean really, how can someone be too dumb to verify that their bullets match the gun they are carrying? 

 

What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/31/2007 at 17:29
oh im sure his .338 and his 300 are dead ringers for each other and he didnt look.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/01/2007 at 12:16
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Actually, the extractor slot is not cut, it was forged and therefore and integral part of the design of the bolt, which does not impart any weakness.  The actual design of the Mark V action, of which the bolt is part of, is designed to withstand 200,000 cup.  There is no other bolt action designed to accomadate that much pressure.  That has actually been reproduced by independent labs.  Also, reloading data, with respect to pressures, are far lower than for Wby. loaded ammunition.  It is not unusual that Norma loaded Wby. ammo to approach 85,000 to 100,000 cpu.  That is why my Sierra loading manual never lists pressures for Wby. cartridges.

 

HOW the slot was put there isn't the point, it's the fact it's there.  It provides a pathway for hot, high pressure escaping gas to be directed out of the chamber, and they have to go somewhere, which means in the forward part of the action where it can potentially blow the action apart.  And, by the way, the slot is indeed cut.  You cannot forge a tiny slot.  Forging is a pounding operation where metal is shaped by hydraulic rams and is used for rough forming only.  All the finish work on the action is machined.  The extractor slot is milled into the bolt the same as the slot for the bolt guide is, and for that matter the material removed around the locking lugs is also relieved by machining in the finishing stages of the bolt.  There is no other practical way to do this.

 

As for pressures, the standard SAAMI chamber pressure for factory .460 Wby ammo is in the neighborhood of 65,000.  The MK V action is reportedly designed to handle the 200,000 c.u.p. (according to Weatherby), but several of the custom actions, which you were comparing the MK V to, will handle 1.5 times that due to superior materials and heat treatment.  However, in the event of case rupture, there is no safer design than a completely enclosed bolt face like the Rem 700 and others like it.  Again, though, it's really a moot point because any action is designed with a large safety margin so that it will more than handle the pressures and forces generated by any cartridge it was designed for, as long as common sense is applied to load data.  AND, any barreled action will blow up if the max pressures are exceeded, there's an obstruction in the barrel, or for some reason a case shoulder was set back too far, causing excess headspace.

Actually machining is quite different than cutting or stamping.  Stamped knives are quite inferior to forged knives.  The bolt itself is forged from bar stock into its primary shape and machined into its final form.  Cutting into a solid piece of metal introduces a stress point from which shearing forces can destroy the bolt and hence the receiver.  Now, with reference to the bolt face, the steel bolt shroud completely encloses the end of the bolt, ie recessed bolt face.  With respect to a catastrophic failure and gas escape.  The whole bolt is designed to direct all gas through the three gas ports in the side of the bolt via the above noted bolt shroud.  In essence, there is a solid three rings of steel equal, actually better, than the Remingtion 700.  It was Remingtion who copied the Wby. advertisment used early on after the Mark V was developed, regarding the three rings of steel. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/01/2007 at 13:10

Sorry to deviate from the O.P. but machining is cutting, whether it is milling, turning, drilling, reaming, boring or broaching. All of our machining where I work is based on cutting speeds, both feed rates and tool or work piece rpm. Using the correct speeds and the right tool can reduce the heat build up and impart very little stress into the work piece.

The physical properties of the steels being machined also determine how much stress is induced. We are now using hi-tech cast steels as replacements for some established tool steels such as S-7, A-2 and D-2 that are very sensitive to machining speeds and can become quite hard. NC progarmming and operator awareness is required. The 4100 series steels we have no problems with and these are also used in many firearms.

Other stresses we have to be concerned with are sharp corners left from machining. Fillets and rounds are incorporated into our designs to reduce this, also. If we look at the receivers and barrels of various gun manufacturers we can see that they do the same. 

 

Doug



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/01/2007 at 13:27
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Sorry to deviate from the O.P. but machining is cutting, whether it is milling, turning, drilling, reaming, boring or broaching. All of our machining where I work is based on cutting speeds, both feed rates and tool or work piece rpm. Using the correct speeds and the right tool can reduce the heat build up and impart very little stress into the work piece.

The physical properties of the steels being machined also determine how much stress is induced. We are now using hi-tech cast steels as replacements for some established tool steels such as S-7, A-2 and D-2 that are very sensitive to machining speeds and can become quite hard. NC progarmming and operator awareness is required. The 4100 series steels we have no problems with and these are also used in many firearms.

Other stresses we have to be concerned with are sharp corners left from machining. Fillets and rounds are incorporated into our designs to reduce this, also. If we look at the receivers and barrels of various gun manufacturers we can see that they do the same. 

 

Doug

When I refer to cutting, I mean actually taking a snipe out of a piece of metal as opposed to grinding or milling.  Cutting creates a stress point that milling or other methods do not.  The bolt in question was forged in rough fashion with this cut out in place and finished up with further tooling methods.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/01/2007 at 17:43
One more thing.  The Remington 700 action, when designed, was a disappointment to many, as it took many short cuts to its final conception.  It was designed for the ease of manufacture in the 1960s and  and uses a round action machined from bar stock, a plunger ejector in the bolt face, and a sort of circlip in the bolt face that snaps over the rim of a chambered cartridge to extract the fired brass. It is still a great action, but the ease of accurizing has made it a main stay for bench rest shooters.  The notion that 9 lugs makes a rifle inherently inaccurate is absurd.  Do not get me wrong, I still love my Remingtons.  The other thing is, superior materials and heat treatment.  Superior materials is somewhat subjective.  If I understand correctly, the Stolle Panda is an aluminum action.  Correct me if I am wrong, but that is not a superion material.  Secondly, heat treatment has never been proven to be superior.  One of the major custom barrel makers, I believe it is Shilen, I could be wrong, does not advocate cryogenic treatment of their barrels for that reason.  There are alot of makers of mechanical products who eschew heat treatment, regardles of the material they are working with.  The reason, no proven benefit and suggestions that it may increase stress in the metal, as well as fatigue and cause some degree of torque in the finished product.  Alot of this is voo doo.  Especially when you can buy a Savage Varminter off of the shelf at a great price that will print groups at one-half minute of action and extend that accuracy out to 500 yards plus.  Lets all raise a pint to Savage.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/01/2007 at 18:34
i would drink to that but i would also add the rem 788 to my toast as well
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/01/2007 at 19:21
Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

When I refer to cutting, I mean actually taking a snipe out of a piece of metal as opposed to grinding or milling.  Cutting creates a stress point that milling or other methods do not.  The bolt in question was forged in rough fashion with this cut out in place and finished up with further tooling methods.

 

Dolphin,

Milling is cutting.  It involves a rotating cutter (endmill, shellmill, facemill, threadmill, drill, etc.) with teeth that is fed across a stationary workpiece and shears away the material.  Turning, which is also cutting, involves a stationary cutter fed across a rotating part, also shearing away the material.  What you seem to be referring to ("taking a 'snipe' out of a piece of metal") I can only assume must be either stamping, or using a press brake, neither of which is used in manufacturing actions.  The only way an action is "cut" is by machining, either milling or turning, sometimes broaching the i.d., and sometimes using EDM.  Grinding is wearing away the material and is in a way "cutting," but not in it's strictest sense.  It too is not generally used as part of the process of making a factory action.  Metalcutting actually produces the LEAST amount of stress in the material than most other metalforming processes including forging, stamping, broaching, and even some casting.  With all due respect, and I don't mean this in any way derogatory, I think your lack of understanding of the subject matter is causing you to draw erroneous conclusions.



Edited by RifleDude
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/01/2007 at 20:25

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

One more thing.  The Remington 700 action, when designed, was a disappointment to many, as it took many short cuts to its final conception.  It was designed for the ease of manufacture in the 1960s and  and uses a round action machined from bar stock, a plunger ejector in the bolt face, and a sort of circlip in the bolt face that snaps over the rim of a chambered cartridge to extract the fired brass.

 

It uses the plunger ejector and circlip extractor in order to preserve the completely enclosed bolt face.  This design is not without disadvantages, but at the same time, it's also a major advantage in handling overpressure.  The same "shortcuts" that make it easier to manufacture also made it simpler to accurize.  "Machined from bar stock" is a good thing, not a negative.  Machining is also the most expensive way to make a finished part out of metal, so that isn't a cost savings step there.  The least expensive method would be to cast the action to near net shape, then do only finish machining.  The extractor in the Wby actions, as well as every other push feed action made "snaps" over the rim in exactly the same manner as the Remington when the bolt is closed, except that the Rem extractor is smaller, less substantial looking than the M16 & Sako style extractors mounted on the side of the bolt. 

 

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

The notion that 9 lugs makes a rifle inherently inaccurate is absurd. 

 

Correct and at the same time, nonsense!  9 lugs in and of itself does not make an action inherently inaccurate.  BUT, uneven lug contact is a major culprit in a rifle not able to achieve it's ultimate accuracy potential, so if your goal is to squeeze every last bit of accuracy out of a rifle, a 9-lug design works against you.  I'm sorry you don't like that fact, but it is still a fact.  After all, what steps are done when you blueprint (accurize) an action?  One of the steps is you square up the locking lugs and receiver abutments to make all lugs bear evenly.  Trust me, this is extremely difficult to do with 9 lugs and 9 receiver abutments.  Understand this -- on a hunting rifle, this is usually a non-issue anyway.  My comments on the 9 lugs was in response to your statement that the MK V was actually superior to all custom actions, and I was explaining in what capacity the custom actions reign supreme, which isn't usally hunting related. 

 

 

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

If I understand correctly, the Stolle Panda is an aluminum action.  Correct me if I am wrong, but that is not a superion material.  

 

The Panda has an aluminum sleeved receiver with steel insert.  It is designed for benchrest shooting and benchrest shooting only, where there are set rifle weight limitations in each competition class.  It reduces weight while at the same time providing a larger surface area for bedding.  In that particular case, yes, it is superior for that purpose.  Some aluminum alloys actually have greater tensile strength than steel, FWIW.  At any rate, it is still machined to much tighter tolerances than any factory action, but it isn't a good choice for a hunting action anyway, so you're comparing apples to oranges.  When you are dealing with custom actions, you're talking about a wide range of choices for many different, often 180 degree different, intended applications, from competition to hunting. 

 

 

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Secondly, heat treatment has never been proven to be superior.  One of the major custom barrel makers, I believe it is Shilen, I could be wrong, does not advocate cryogenic treatment of their barrels for that reason.

 

Complete and utter nonsense!  I'm sorry, but you simply have no idea what you're talking about there.  100% of ALL rifle actions -- every single one of them -- are heat treated in some way.  If they weren't, they would be unsafe to shoot.  That has absolutely zero relevance to cryo treatment.  Heat treating is a broad classification of introducing heat and controlled quenching of the materials to achieve any number of desired mechanical properties that the base material may not already possess.  It changes the grain structure of the steel, primarily the carbon, either to impart increased surface hardness, tensile strength, or dimensional stability, and includes hardening, tempering, annealing, etc.  Whether or not it imparts stresses/'warping in the material has to do with whether heat treating was done before or after machining, what level of cutting forces were imparted in machining, and whether a stress relieving or tempering step was done.  Cryogenic treatment is a type of heat treatment not the definition of heat treatment -- that involves heating then cooling slowly to extreme cold temperatures.  It is a very controversial procedure that hasn't been conclusively proven to provide benefits in all situations, has no relevance whatsoever to actions, and isn't at all what I meant when I said "heat treatment." 

 

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

There are alot of makers of mechanical products who eschew heat treatment, regardles of the material they are working with.  The reason, no proven benefit and suggestions that it may increase stress in the metal, as well as fatigue and cause some degree of torque in the finished product.  Alot of this is voo doo. 
  

 

I love ya, man, but that's just nonsense too.  Heat treating has been perfected to an art form.  Almost anything you buy made out of steel -- ANYTHING from knives, to tools, to gun parts -- has probably undergone some sort of heat treat process...unless the manufacturer of said product doesn't need it to have any compressive or tensile strength or wear resistance qualities. 

 

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Especially when you can buy a Savage Varminter off of the shelf at a great price that will print groups at one-half minute of action and extend that accuracy out to 500 yards plus.  Lets all raise a pint to Savage.

 

Now, that's the one correct statement you made!

Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/01/2007 at 20:58
ted are doing your "tough love from ted, the hour of power" advice colum again, i think i hear the choir warming up tell like it like is pastor ted
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