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silver View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/25/2007 at 20:47

 

 

Narrow Gap,

If there is no God, how can you have a God given right?  The Supreme court has interpted Jefferson' letter to the Danbury Bapist to mean that there is a seperation of Church and state.  The collary to that is that the court can now pick and choose natural rights based on it own views rather than those of our founders. 

 

BTW who pick who is on the courts?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2007 at 07:32

I Might be wrong on this but here goes.

 

 

Church and state.

 

 I was thought that the state was not to be in the church but the church should be in the state.

Reasons

State will corrupt the church.

Church will give the state morals.

 

 

 

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qmadison.htm 

 

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2007 at 08:20
Narrow gap your ideas are backward to say the least.  If you read a previous post of mine, the easiest way to ban guns in this country, is through the UN, the same way NAFTA was passed.  It matters who is elected, not only as your President, because he has the ability to sway the votes of US congressmen, but your US representatives.  Politics aside, it just so happens that in general, Democrats are usually anti-gun and Republicans are usually pro-gun.  We can all name exceptions, but this generally the case.  The second amendment is teetering beneath our feet and unless we are proactive, we will lose the right to bear arms.  Go Duncan Hunter and Fred Thompson.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2007 at 08:26

I totally agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The people who we elect are the biggest players we have for gun rights. I also know that politicians are not the honest people on the planet. So they say one thing but when elected they do another. So I think we all need to be very careful of who we elect .One mistake today can lead to a life time of pain for all the gun owners in this country.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2007 at 09:46
Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

I Might be wrong on this but here goes.

Church and state.

 I was thought that the state was not to be in the church but the church should be in the state.

Reasons

State will corrupt the church.

Church will give the state morals.

 

 

http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qmadison.htm 

 

 

Big Daddy,

 

I will not say that your interpitation is wrong.  I will say that there are people who choose to see it in a differant manner.  The problem is that there are people in power who are looking for a "loophole" to use at thier convience.  If they can get rid of "God', then they have found a loophole..

 

Just think, it was not that long ago that there was a Rhoades Scholar who became a law professor who had trouble deffining the simple word "IS"...  Now, let that same sort of person define a word like "god" and what sort of thing could you get?

 

The Second amendment as a part of the Bill of Rights is said to be a natural or "God Given" right.  That means it therefore is somewhat dependant upon the existance of some form of god.  We live in a world that finds many forms of god inconvient.  Therefore it/they choose to ignore anything they/it find unpleasing.

 

My point is not get theological, but to set a frame work to define problem areas.  The baseline from which many of us would choose to work is ignored for more "progressive" ideals.   They define thier own more convient paradigm and take it from there. 

 

-ag-

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2007 at 09:51

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Narrow gap your ideas are backward to say the least.  If you read a previous post of mine, the easiest way to ban guns in this country, is through the UN, the same way NAFTA was passed.  

 

Point of order... NAFTA is an international tready.  It was not a part of the UN (that  does not mean that it is not "globalist" in nature).  Most intesting was that it was signed by President Clinton who got a lot of union election monies.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2007 at 09:54

I had my suspicions about Rudy Guiliani s 2nd ammendment views (NYNY)and started looking at the other Republicans -- out of the lot Duncan Hunter seems to hold the views closest to mine on many issues.

http://gunowners.org/pres08/

http://www.ontheissues.org/Gun_Control.htm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_el_pr/where_they_s tand_gun_control

(In an effort to be politically correct enough to get elected)

Rudy Giuliani: Now says states should decide appropriate gun controls. As New York mayor and Senate prospect in 2000, favored variety of federal controls, including ban on assault-style weapons and waiting period for purchases. Also favored a federal mandate to register handgun owners and require handgun buyers to "demonstrate good moral character and a reason to have the gun."

 

And exactly who is going to judge if the reason is reasonable enough, and would you like to define good moral character for us does that mean that one bachelor party at the titty bar excludes you from gun ownership. Rudy give us a break just admit you are a Democrat.

 

As For Mc Cain at best he is not strongly in favor of second ammendment rights. http://gunowners.org/pres08/mccain.htm

 

Enter Duncan Hunter  http://www.gohunter08.com/

 

The battle ground for second ammendment rights is not only the main election but the Republican Primary and even more so after the Virginia Tech shootings.

 

I can distinctly remember in 1980 being a Federal Police Officer for U.S. Dept. of Labor on Gary Job Corp Center doing criminal investigations when word came down from Dept of Labor restricting officers from carrying side arms to only when protecting large sums of money. (The term students would refer to the 2200 co-ed teenagers there mostly from inner city gangs). It certainly made confiscating firearms, and in one case a hand grenade, from the students there much more interesting. The Left has little or no understanding of the proper reasonable use of firearms.  Virginia Tech and many other schools choose not to arm their officers and have little understanding of how that increases safety risks for everyone there. Quite simply if the school fails to arm their police / security they are little more than report writers and door unlockers.  I cant imagine how given the fact that there was an earlier fatal shooting the Virginia Tech area Police were so unprepaired as to allow someone time enough to shoot almost 200 rounds of ammunition.  For goodness sake somebody fight back. Didn't Hitler take all the guns away before he altered the form of government.  Did Hillary learn from that, and exactly what form of goverment does she wish to establish.  Isn't taking guns away the first indicator of a coming mass genocide.

 

 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2007 at 10:06

I thought this was interesting .On how the view company’s views are expressed. 

 

 

Cheaper Than Dirt is America’s Ultimate Shooting Sports Discounter!
We are proud of our position as the largest discounter of ammo, shooting supplies and gun gear in America. We sell big piles of shooting supplies at cheap prices and keep America loaded up with ammunition, shooting gear and weapons supplies. Much to the chagrin of the left coast liberals, we believe you should own guns, and have ready access to ammo and gear and enjoy the lifestyle our founding fathers suggested when they instituted the Second Amendment to the Constitution. We strongly support your freedom to own guns and we constantly do our part to make sure you have the supplies to keep you going. We sell tons of ammo, gun gear, weapons supplies, holsters, magazines, and related books, manuals and DVDs. Below are some the manufactures, product categories and specific items we try to keep in stock for your enjoyment. So load up, keep your powder dry and help keep America Free! www.competitor.com

P&Z Firearms , Pro gun cleanings and gun repair and wood refinishing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2007 at 11:58
Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

Originally posted by Dolphin Dolphin wrote:

Narrow gap your ideas are backward to say the least.  If you read a previous post of mine, the easiest way to ban guns in this country, is through the UN, the same way NAFTA was passed.  

 

Point of order... NAFTA is an international tready.  It was not a part of the UN (that  does not mean that it is not "globalist" in nature).  Most intesting was that it was signed by President Clinton who got a lot of union election monies.

Actually, while it is an international treaty, the method by which it was passed and signed into legislation is unique and unknow to most Americans.  The treaty was drafted by the UN with the aid of the USA and Mexico.  It was then signed by our reprenstative to the UN.  It is at this point that it only requires a majority vote, not two thirds vote, to be passed by congress.  It was then sent to president Clinton and signed into law.  This is the exact mechanism how George Soros and many other internationals want to ban guns in the USA.  Read Wayne Lapierre's book The Global War On Your Guns.  He explains this and many other issues in chilling detail.

I forgot to say how this would work with respect to banning guns.  The UN would draft a resolution, treaty as you could call it, to have guns banned in the USA or for that matter world wide.  But, for this example, lets just say the USA.  If passed by members of the UN and signed by our representative, it would go through the process as described above.  That is another reason why it is important who is elected as the President and US representatives to Congress.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Narrow Gap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2007 at 18:05
Dolphin I have read how the U.N. plans to get to the U.S citizens gun rights by an international treaty. I for one will not abide by any international treaty and I will always be a lawbreaker if guns are banned becaue I will have lost all faith in the people that make the rules and laws. Call me a rebel  and I think I will have lots of people doing the same as me if guns are banned. The people who established this country were law breakers and rebels according to England and see what standing up for what you believe in created the great U.S.A. BTW I do believe in God and I'm sorry if I offend anyone in my beliefs. If we let any of our leaders or the U.N. change any of the original Bill of Right I feel like our country will be headed in a downward spiral. Guns to me are not the big issue it is taking away freedoms bit by bit that real get me fired up and taking away our gun rights is taking away a piece of our freedom.  The citizens of the U.S.A. will stand up strongly and let our leaders know with a very loud voice they will not stand for a ban on guns or any of our rights to be taken away, thats what is great about living in the ole U.S.A.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2007 at 14:38
I agree Narrow Gap.  It is part of a wider issue, the declining rights of our citizens.  Take smoking cigarettes.  I used to smoke and enjoyed it.  But, if a bar owner wants to allow people to smoke in his own buisness that he pays taxes on, he should have the right to allow it and if you do not smoke and do not want to go in, so be it (and vice versa).  I went to VMI, class of 1979.  At that time, since my father attended 30 years earlier, they had a 100% placement into medical schools.  Unheard of for any school.  Their graduates had the highest mean income of any school and they ranked in the top 20 for the % that became CEOs of major US coporations, MDs and PhDs.  They produced people like George Marshall, George Patton, half of Patton's Generals, just to name their military contribution, others like JC Wheat of Wheat First Securities and actors like Dabney Coleman.  The list goes on and considering they only graduate about 150 students a year.  While US World Reports ranks school, with one of their criteria being retention, probably 30% of the people that started when I did, left withtin 1 week.  Then the US government decides that they have to take women.  This is despite the fact that in the state of Virginia, there is a corp of cadets at VPI that accepted women.  This is despite the fact that only 30% of the total funding of the school came from state and federal sources, the rest from private donations, particularly alumni.  Well 80 million dollars of your tax dollars later, they take women.  The system has been forever changed.  I am sorry the slimy Feds. cannot leave well enough alone.  Hazing there was difficult and built character.  It was fraternity house style, drunken foolishness.  When you went there, you knew what to expect.  If you did not want to be hazed, you did not go, it did not make you a lesser person.  Now, I cannot recall anything from my old school that any graduate has done of a significant nature.  My father and I refuse to give any money to them.  I figured, let the state and feds. pay for it, thats how they wanted it.  The point is, nobody cared about VMI at that time.  To them it was nothing more than a newspaper article.  Its the same with alot of causes these days.  Unless it involves you personally, why get involved.  Gun owners must stick together.  I will not be stripped of my weapons, no matter what law is passed and unless we make it known that we all feel this way, guess what.  Its back to bow hunting only, unless they ban those too.  By the way, George Bush Senior's Attorney General pushed that legislation through against VMI.  Great conservative.  Sounds more like Jimmy Carter.  And while I am at it, we as a public, must do something about illegal immigrants and I mean primarily Mexicans.  I saw one yestersday as a patient, 76yo with a "funny" social security number, who had to have a pacemaker.  I checked into it and the hospital nor any employee can report him as an illegal as it is a HIPPA violation.  Same with drug users and dealers.  We just spent about 20000 dollars putting a pacemaker in this illegal and you know where the money came from.  We should charge it to George Bush and Hillary Clinton.  I am tired of my tirade, but count this as my daily post, so I will be back tomorrow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Narrow Gap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2007 at 17:18
I'm right in tune with ya Dolphin! Good post!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hot30 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2007 at 18:21
Im not much of a statesman or scholar, but I fancy history and collect quotes from them..
Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed;as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe.. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States..A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power.
    Noah webster
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2007 at 18:56
i would like to see what would happen if the president had to order the miltary to disarm the public i think the military members would go awol and then it would get intresting.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2007 at 19:04

Originally posted by Narrow Gap Narrow Gap wrote:

The citizens of the U.S.A. will stand up strongly and let our leaders know with a very loud voice they will not stand for a ban on guns or any of our rights to be taken away, thats what is great about living in the ole U.S.A.

 

 

  I have been having some posting issues so I will make this a short reply.  Over twenty years ago I went to my first "classified" school, it was on propaganda. It was sort of a get to know the flow thing, yet then I got to march back to the barracks and watch the TV news and watch those same techniques used against president Regan.   

 

It has been said recently that the Marines are at War and America is at the Mall.  I have been waiting twenty years for America to "awaken" and it has not happend yet.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2007 at 19:28

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

i would like to see what would happen if the president had to order the miltary to disarm the public i think the military members would go awol and then it would get intresting.

 

Be careful of what you ask for ... You may get it... Think Hillary in her second term. or Vice president Obama's first term as president.  Anything with balls will have left, or be button holed into hell.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2007 at 20:41

thats my point the military people would never do that to the american people, i mean they would have to kill people to take there guns. they would lay there m-16 down before they would do anything else.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hot30 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/27/2007 at 21:46

the beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it,

 

       Thomas Jefferson

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2007 at 07:35
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

thats my point the military people would never do that to the american people, i mean they would have to kill people to take there guns. they would lay there m-16 down before they would do anything else.

 

 

You mean like post Katrina NOLA?   Oh, sorry, that was "contract" personel and law enforcement from whereever, my bad.   Dude wake up it has happened here once already.  Please note the tank did not run over the guy Tietmen Square, just waited for him to leave. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/28/2007 at 13:41
Originally posted by silver silver wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

thats my point the military people would never do that to the american people, i mean they would have to kill people to take there guns. they would lay there m-16 down before they would do anything else.

 

 

You mean like post Katrina NOLA?   Oh, sorry, that was "contract" personel and law enforcement from whereever, my bad.   Dude wake up it has happened here once already.  Please note the tank did not run over the guy Tietmen Square, just waited for him to leave. 

Most of what happened to those thieves post Katrina, deserved it.  The real problem is how they will take our weapons, if they are banned.  Typically I would expect a voluntary turn in at the local law enforcement office, maybe by alphabetical order and dates.  Letters will be sent to those that are delinquent and given a time frame with which they can comply.  If they do not comply, fines will initially be levied and may even be garnished through your wages.  Of course, you will be reimburshed some paltry sum for your weapons, no where worth their value.  The last thing that will be used to collect your weapons will be force.  It is easier to do it by the other means.  And if it comes down to force, it will be a house by house collection, by local or federal law enforcement.  Problem is, you are sitting their with your family and they knock on your door and ask for your weapons.  Do you break bad and have shoot out with your kids and wife in the home.  Or do you cower to the safe and hand them to the communist intruders in your life.  Most everyone is going to do the later.  There is going to be nobody else covering your back.  Why?  For the reasons I stated above.  Nobody cares.  Your average neighbor probably doesn't.  Ask around at work, most people will say they are against significant gun control, but how far will they themselves go to support that point, especially when that point is at hand.  Obviously, all of us that feel as passionate about the issue at hand, cannot move to a fortified city or state.  Succesion of a portion of the country from the Union as the south did when their rights were violated by the north (and no, this is not meant to bring up any racial issues or why the civil war was really fought, so refrain from any comments, it is used purely as an analogy), is a consideration, but not rational.  I don't think ignoring the issue of the possibility of a total gun ban in the future is implausible, as history has taught us, that our rights have been gradually been eroded since the inception of this country.  Therefore, what do we do, other than voting the "right" way and continuing to let out reprsentatives know, how we as a people, feel about these issues.  Proactive measures need to be considered, so as, if the day ever comes that we are never allowed to own guns, we as a people have a plan.  The term militia, conjours up all sorts of evil and nefarious thoughts and activities, but is an option for every community, if done in an above board status and sanctioned as such, to be part of the protecting forces of this country and those members regardless of any laws applying to regular citizens, with respect to the ownership of guns, would not apply to them.  Another idea, is that of a gun depository that would exist as a method to quickly change the name of ownership of weapons and subsequently hide said weapons, until decisions could be made by those involved, how they wanted to react, with respect to a potential violent stand against the ban of gun ownership.  Upon the impending ban of weapons, all persons involved would "sell" their weapons to a depository, a shell as it were, with a name and incorporation and each owner would have the right to buy back his gun, at the same price.  Of course the guns would be sold to the depository at a fee of 1 penny to whatever it would take to manage it, without damage to weapons.  Of course the depository would be in a hidden location and according to records, if you sold all of your weapons, you would own none and potentially be immune from monetory rape.  I have other ideas, but these are things that we need to not only think about now, but act on now or in the very near future.  I never had any interest in a black rifle, just my preference, but with HR1022 having passed the Senate and heading our way, I just ordered and Olympic Arms K3B .223.  I bought it out of Texas and it is on back order for 3 weeks the owner of the shop told me.  Why?  Because of HR1022.  Alot of us are thinking alike.

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