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8X42 choice

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thinkingman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thinkingman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 14:09

Hijack alert!

Any other insights re 8X42's for hunting?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bird Watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 14:41
It is alot easier to travel the information highway when you know what "direction" you are going in.

Why don't you be more "specific" about what it is that you are wanting to know.
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thinkingman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thinkingman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 15:25
Originally posted by thinkingman thinkingman wrote:

I've searched and read and read and searched.

I am going to ask those with experience....Which 8X42 for hunting.

I think I've narrowed it to Kahles, Vortex, or Minox HG.

All are available from the SHOT show and all seem like good pieces.

Concerns are...Kahles seems heavy.

Minox looks too pretty to be rugged.

Vortex is an unknown, at least to me and will there be a market or warranty support down the road?

What would you do?

Thanks

This was the original post and there may be others with insights or opinions.

Thanks for additional info.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bird Watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 15:58
You sound like a thinkingman to me.

I am sure that you have already discovered that there is no shortage of advice. Sometimes we can think ourselves into a brain cramp.

If you feel that the Kahles are too heavy, that is a good gut feeling to pay attention to, as they won't get any lighter carrying them around for hours on end.

I have never heard anything about the Minox being too fragile, or too delicate, just the opposite. Others have made the statement that they are built like a "tank".

If you are "worried" that the Vortex are too new on the market, why don't you pass on them, and watch and see how they do in the coming months.

There is "no shortage" of binocular companies to choose from. Rather than have someone talk you into purchasing a product based on what they like, or, what they think is a sound investment, I would suggest that you go to the SHOOT Show and invest in the product that appeals to "you" the most.

The three brand names that you have already mentioned all have had good reviews from those that own them. The Minox, and the Vortex top-of-the-line binoculars, are all made in Japan, and are very high quality.

If you want us to cast our votes, I would vote for the Minox.
For those who are weight conscious, Minox offers optics that are compact in size.

p.s. I prefer a company that also offers high-quality porro prism binoculars in their product line.






Edited by Bird Watcher
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 15:59

To answer your original ?s:

 

I have both the Kahles and Vortex Razor, but I have the 10X42 version of the Kahles.  I haven't seen the Minox HG outside of a store, but I got the overall impression it has superb optics.  I have heard elsewhere it and the Razor are very close to each other optically, but can't confirm that.

 

The Kahles is lighter than the Vortex.  I think the Vortex has better optics than the Kahles, in fact noticeably better -- in my opinion.  Not to say the Kahles isn't good -- it is -- I just think the Razor is brighter, sharper across the field, more color neutral, and has much less chromatic aberration.  Between those two, I think the Razor is a better binocular and a better value overall, if you like the ergonomics of an open hinge design, but I wouldn't hesitate to recommend the Kahles either. 

 

The Vortex 8X42 has wider FOV than any of the 3 you mentioned by a considerable margin.

 

The Kahles and Minox have better name recognition, so if you think you might ever sell the bino later, they may have better resale value, depending on how well the Vortex name gains acceptance down the road.

 

I would look at and handle all 3 in a store and see which one you like best.  The Kahles and Minox can be found in many retail outlets carrying fine optics; the Vortex isn't found in too many stores at present, but that may soon change.  Some distributors will let you try it and send it back if you aren't satisfied with it.

 

Of those 3, I'd personally go with the Razor 8X42 even though I haven't used the Minox outside of a store.  I just place a lot of value on wide FOV.  But, if the Minox felt better in my hands and had other qualities I liked better than the other 2, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it due to its excellent reputation. 

 

Hope this helps.

Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrankD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 16:08

Nice post Ted. My feelings on the subject as well. I should have more to say on the Razor shortly but just going by specs I would say it is the most impressive of the bunch though I am sure all of them are more than above average in terms of optical performance.

 

Maybe I am mistaken but I could have sworn I read on the Vortex website that the Razor has low dispersion glass which would explain the lower levels of CA that you noticed.

Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nohornes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 17:41
I feel i must add my thoughts to this. i had a chance to compare the kahles 10x42 the minox 10x43 and the minox asph 10x42. after 1 1/2 hours hear are my thoughts. the minox 10x42 asph and the 10x43 seem to have identical optics. i varified this with 4 other people. we could not see any difference in the optics of the two. even outside the store in low light. the hg was a little nicer to hold and had a locking diopler. but no matter what minox states we could see no difference in the optics. the kahles seemed just as crisp and a little brighter. the colors were more natural in the minox.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 17:52
If they could just get some of these Vortexes to most of the stores...I have seen in my hand one so far.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucznik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 18:56

Originally posted by nohornes nohornes wrote:

I feel i must add my thoughts to this. i had a chance to compare the kahles 10x42 the minox 10x43 and the minox asph 10x42. after 1 1/2 hours hear are my thoughts. the minox 10x42 asph and the 10x43 seem to have identical optics. i varified this with 4 other people. we could not see any difference in the optics of the two. even outside the store in low light. the hg was a little nicer to hold and had a locking diopler. but no matter what minox states we could see no difference in the optics. the kahles seemed just as crisp and a little brighter. the colors were more natural in the minox.

 

Please don't take this rudely as I don't know anything about you or your level of experience, education, etc. but, I do have a question relating to your experience with these two binoculars.

 

Is it possible that your (and your compatriots') inability to see any difference can be explained by a lack of overall experience comparing binoculars? 

 

The reason I ask is because I have a brother-in-law who swears he cannot see any difference between his Bushnell Trophy 8x32 and my brother's Bushnell Legend 8x32, my dad's Pentax DCF WP 8x42, or my Bushnell Elite 10x43 - even though there are (too me) obvious differences in all of them. He only looks through his binocular maybe twice a year and for about 30 seconds at a time so; his inability to see these things is pretty easy to explain. 

 

His is, admittedly, a very extreme example and I'm not suggesting you're in the same boat but, I still wonder if some lesser level of this same phenomenon is partly responsible for your experience.



Edited by lucznik
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucznik Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 19:06

Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:


There is "no shortage" of binocular companies to choose from.

 

Boy, isn't that the truth.  Actually, I would almost be willing to say there are too many. Regardless of quality, I don't think all of them can survive for very long in such a competitive environment. 

 

The question is; will some of these newer upstarts (by offering superior quality at better prices) take the market by storm proving the downfall of some bigger, more established brands or; will they just slip by the wayside into obscurity?

Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:

I prefer a company that also offers high-quality porro prism binoculars in their product line.

 

Why would this be, I wonder?   Is it just a preference for porro-prism glass in general?  If not and if the roof prism offerings are of sufficient quality, why would the lack of a porro-prism offering in the line bias you away from a company's other offerings?

What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 19:08

lucznik,

An extreme example of this very phenomenon was a gentleman who recently told me he was given a Swarovski scope as a gift... and he honestly preferred his Simmons 44Mag scope over it!

 

I must add, this isn't in any way a commentary on nohornes' post either, just that I see this frequently, especially among some of my family members, who think spending more than $150 on a riflescope is pure insanity.  After all, a $50 scope will help you "see stuff closer" same as a $1000 scope will.

Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nohornes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 19:18
Originally posted by lucznik lucznik wrote:

Originally posted by nohornes nohornes wrote:

I feel i must add my thoughts to this. i had a chance to compare the kahles 10x42 the minox 10x43 and the minox asph 10x42. after 1 1/2 hours hear are my thoughts. the minox 10x42 asph and the 10x43 seem to have identical optics. i varified this with 4 other people. we could not see any difference in the optics of the two. even outside the store in low light. the hg was a little nicer to hold and had a locking diopler. but no matter what minox states we could see no difference in the optics. the kahles seemed just as crisp and a little brighter. the colors were more natural in the minox.

 

Please don't take this rudely as I don't know anything about you or your level of experience, education, etc. but, I do have a question relating to your experience with these two binoculars.

 

Is it possible that your (and your compatriots') inability to see any difference can be explained by a lack of overall experience comparing binoculars? 

 

The reason I ask is because I have a brother-in-law who swears he cannot see any difference between his Bushnell Trophy 8x32 and my brother's Bushnell Legend 8x32, my dad's Pentax DCF WP 8x42, or my Bushnell Elite 10x43 - even though there are (too me) obvious differences in all of them. He only looks through his binocular maybe twice a year and for about 30 seconds at a time so; his inability to see these things is pretty easy to explain. 

 

His is, admittedly, a very extreme example and I'm not suggesting you're in the same boat but, I still wonder if some lesser level of this same phenomenon is partly responsible for your experience.

I am no optic expert by any means. but in my personal binoculars at this time are a pair of pentex dcf sp in 10x43, cabelas euros in 10x42, kahles 10x42 ,leica BA in 10x42 and i have a pair of elite's in 10x43 on the way. all in the name of science

I have owned 10x40 zeiss classic, 10x40 victory II and swarovski 10x42 slc and swift 8.5x44 roofs. and a pair of 10x42 fujinon CD. monarch 10x42 and about 20 lesser pairs. my current favorites



Edited by nohornes
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nohornes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 19:27

these are near the top of my list also.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bird Watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 19:34
lucznik,

It certainly would be nice to see companies like Vortex give some of the old dogs a run for their money. With companies resorting to low-end products being made in China, with so-so optics, and so-so optical coatings, I think that some of them are actually shooting themselves in the foot.

There is more and more disappointment being aired over the internet concerning binocular companies that once were reliable, now having products arrive in the states out-of-collimation, and also complaints of poorer warranty service.   

Yes, I must admit to a "preference" for porro prism binoculars, because of the 3D image representation that I find more desirable and more satisfying.    Also, too many of the roof prism designs do not fit my hands as well as the porro prism binoculars. It is easy for me to choose porro prisms over roof prisms because I have not been in a position to afford the roofs that I like. (example, Swarovski SLCnew 15x56) Personally, I appreciate a company that is willing go the extra mile, and offer modern technology in "both" porro and roof prism binoculars. We all have different reasons for patronizing the optics manufacturers which we lean towards.

Lastly, since I am not a hunter, I find myself much more interested in magnifications that are mostly limited to the porro prism design.   

p.s. From what I have heard over the internet, about the Zeiss 15x60 B/GA porro prism binoculars, I just might have to take out a 2nd mortgage and get myself one of these.     
   

Edited by Bird Watcher
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2007 at 19:30
I've got a 8x42 Vortex Razor on the way.  I'll post my impressions when it gets here.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrankD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2007 at 06:41

That makes two of us koshkin. Mine rolled in last night but it was too dark to really do anything with them. I have a conference this morning but hope do give them a thorough shake later this afternoon. What I can comment on at this point is build quality and design.

 

The overall build quality seems very good. All of the fit and finish is excellent. There is no play in the rotating eyecups, central hinge however, the latter is just a bit looser than I would prefer.

 

The design is very good as well. My hands fit comfortably around the barrels. The open bridge design gives the impression of a much lighter weight binocular. The eyecups have a very nice multi-click stop mechanism that allows them to be adjusted in very small increments. In addition those increments are nicely labeled on the side of the eyecup so as you twist them out the graduations are revealed. There is also a set of flared eyecups included in the packaging. The rubber armor seems more than sufficient at protecting the binoculars from any type of dents or dings. The diopter adjustment is found by popping out the focusing knob and is also of the click-stop design.

 

Negatives at this point, and take this with a grain of salt as I am being a bit picky...

 

- though nowhere near as bad as I have seen mentioned in other posts the focusing knob is a bit stiffer than some of the other binoculars I have owned. I think this is somewhat of a perceived stiffness though if that makes sense. I believe this is the result of two issues. One, the size of the focusing knob and the angle with which my finger comes off the barrel and rests upon it. If the focusing knob was a bit smaller I do not think it would be as much of an effort. Two, the texture of the knob itself. The knob is coated with a series of very small, pointed "nodules". They are by no means uncomfortable and offer very good traction but they give the effect of something rough on the tips of my fingers and this could be contributing to the perception of a less than desirable focusing tension.

 

- the previously mentioned central hinge tension. I would prefer it a bit stiffer so it is more difficult to collapse.

 

- the rubber armor has a somewhat unpleasant odor

 

All for now as I have to run.

Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trinidad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2007 at 12:25

Thank you PaulN for posting on Optics Talk. It is realy nice to see factory reps stand behind and explain there products, you have definetly cought my intrest. I think I might go with your 10x50 Razor I am pricing them right

now.

Left view of the Vortex Razor 10x50 binoculars
Left view of the Vortex Razor 10x50 binoculars Right view of the Vortex Razor 10x50 binoculars Front view of the Vortex Razor 10x50 binoculars Back view of the Vortex Razor 10x50 binoculars

This product is not available for purchase yet. Check back soon!

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FrankD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2007 at 14:06

Ok, I had some time this afternoon to give the 8x42 Razors a bit of an optical examination.

 

Two BIG THUMBS UP!

 

Outstanding in every regard I can think to comment on.

 

Field of View:

 

Exceptional, class leading, superb...are just a few words that come to mind. At 410 feet they pretty much equal my Meopta Meostars and better the Zeiss FLs by 5 feet.

 

Edge Sharpness:

 

Same set of adjectives. The edge sharpness is a bit better than both the Meopta and the Leica Trinovid I currently have in my possession. I would say it is roughly equal to that of the new Swaro SLCs and ELs and just a hair less than that of the Nikon Premier/Venturer/HGs.

 

Color representation: Very neutral and very similar to the Leica Trinovids in their vividness of colors.

 

Brightness: Excellent brightness levels. I have yet to check it in low light conditions but I have a difficult time believing it is going to disappoint.

 

Color Fringing: I was unable to detect color fringing against several high contrast objects including a crow against a blue sky and the highly reflective top of one of my bird feeders. I can pick up slight color fringing in both cases, especially around the edges, on both the Trinovid and the Meopta but not the Razor. Vortex advertises this binocular as having extra low dispersion glass and it shows.

 

Apparent sharpness: With very neutral color represenation this binocular displays very sharp images and a nice sweet spot of focus from very good depth of field.

 

I really do not have anything negative to say about this binocular's optics. In fact, this might be, arguably, the nicest image I have had the privelege to look at from a premium roof prism binocular. There isn't any annoying astigmatism or edge distortion, no "almost artificial" color representation and definitely a very low level of color fringing.

 

In my opinion this binocular isn't a Swarovski EL knockoff. It is a direct competitor. For all of you folks that trust my fairly limited experience I would suggest trying these binoculars out. I think many of you will be genuinely surprised at what $700 will get you.

Frank
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thinkingman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2007 at 10:54

I just picked up two pairs of Nikon Venturers for comparison.

I got the 8X32 and 10X32 Venturer LX series.

These are the same as the reference 'nocs on Betterviewdesired.

They are very impressive.

I will compare to the Kahles 8X42 I just ordered and keep one and sell the others.

Anyone interested in the remaining NIB Nikons?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2007 at 11:01
I might be interested in the 8X32.  PM me with how much you want for it.
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