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shot-out

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Dale Clifford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2007 at 17:09
Excellent points. I'm suprized someone hasn't been more vocal about the break in method, than the control of the shooting technique. This is usually the topic of all kinds of stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 08:31

Dale, for the type of rifle you're evaluating (accurate varmint rifle), the accuracy expectations are higher than a typical hunting rifle, so I'd say "shot out" would be when aggregate group sizes get about 25% larger than observed when new.  And, you’ll also need to test based on aggs, not individual groups, so you have more statistically valid data.

Also, with regards to the bench issue, the very best test you could devise to determine accurate barrel life would be using a rail gun while shooting indoors or in an area that also eliminates the effects of wind.  Since this probably isn't practical, anything that gets closer to this ideal will improve the validity of the test results.  So, I really do think using a bench would be better so that the variation in data will be most closely correlated to the barrel, not shooter.  Not doubting your shooting abilities, but the results will be more meaningful if we know all other variables besides the rifle were taken out of the test as much as possible.  Especially since the accuracy expectations for this class of rifle are more stringent, and therefore, the definition of "shot out" would probably involve a smaller cone of dispersion, more difficult to sort out from human factors.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dogger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 09:31

Dale/Rifledude:  is there any info available from barrel makers/rifle manufacturers that would provide an idea of what criteria they use to accept or reject barrels?  If there is, not sure if criteria is decided upon by tolerance measurements on the barrel itself or through live fire testing.

 

Would be nice to get other members ideas on what MOA is acceptable on a big game centrefire rifle at 100 yds.  I'm leaning towards 4-5 MOA max from a sold rest.  Don't care if the rifle is brand new or 50 years old.  Expectations will play a part here, i.e.  if I'm only ever going to shoot to a max 100-150 yds from an old 45-70 this may be ok.  If a have a 338  it has to be better than this.

 

Thoughts?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 10:02
Originally posted by Dogger Dogger wrote:

Dale/Rifledude:  is there any info available from barrel makers/rifle manufacturers that would provide an idea of what criteria they use to accept or reject barrels?  If there is, not sure if criteria is decided upon by tolerance measurements on the barrel itself or through live fire testing.

 

I don't know what factory barrel makers use as acceptance criteria from a tolerance standpoint, but custom barrel makers consider a "match grade" barrel to be one with a measured land & groove TIR (total indicator reading) of 0.0001" to 0.0002" across the entire bore, measured with an air gage.  Good factory barrel TIR would be around 0.001", which is the number I believe Kimber advertises as their acceptable tolerance (not saying Kimber has the best factory barrel, just that I remember they published something to that effect).  Factory barrels aren't finish lapped like custom barrels, so they aren't capable of achieving the same tolerances as customs on a mass production basis.  Notice the number of "0"s after the decimal point in those tolerances; that wasn't a typo.  A true "match grade" custom barrel is made to 5-10 times tighter tolerance for bore uniformity than the factory barrel example used above, and that's considered a very good factory barrel.  Rifle manufacturers throw around the term "match grade" a little too liberally.



Edited by RifleDude
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 15:45

Cooper lists this tube as match chamber, which is easy, but as Rifledude pointed out, I doubt if it is Match grade barrel. I'll try to find out from them, although both Kimber and Cooper advertise lapped at the factory. 4-5 moa is usually the accepted standard for an action shooter type rifle AR-10 or ar 15 from standing under time pressure. I would demand much more from a hunting rifle. 2-4 inch groups are usually a standard for standing metallic silhoutte.

Also I think there is an assumption about bench that should be looked at. How about the rests, would a loose Hoppes be ok, or do we need Sinclairs stuff and how about rear gun support 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 16:08
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

How about the rests, would a loose Hoppes be ok, or do we need Sinclairs stuff and how about rear gun support 

 

No, a loose Hoppes or any other loose front rest would not be ideal.  As for rear support, a simple Protektor bunny ear or rabbit ear style bag would be fine and they are also inexpensive.  Rather than buying a really good front rest, which can get kinda expensive, unless you had already planned to get one anyway, simple sandbags provide almost as much stability as a good front rest.

 

Give me a PM if in fact you ARE looking for advice on a good front rest.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 16:16
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

Cooper lists this tube as match chamber, which is easy, but as Rifledude pointed out, I doubt if it is Match grade barrel. I'll try to find out from them, although both Kimber and Cooper advertise lapped at the factory. 4-5 moa is usually the accepted standard for an action shooter type rifle AR-10 or ar 15 from standing under time pressure. I would demand much more from a hunting rifle. 2-4 inch groups are usually a standard for standing metallic silhoutte.

Also I think there is an assumption about bench that should be looked at. How about the rests, would a loose Hoppes be ok, or do we need Sinclairs stuff and how about rear gun support 

 

Cooper uses Wilson rifle barrels which are air guaged and finished lapped.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2007 at 17:40
Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Cooper uses Wilson rifle barrels which are air guaged and finished lapped.

 

Correct.  Unlike the other custom barrel makers, Wilson isn't a brand used by competitive benchrest shooters, but they do make a better barrel than what comes standard on most factory rifles.  Whether or not they're made to true "match grade" standards, I dunno, but they are very good barrels within the reasonable MSRP of Cooper rifles.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2007 at 11:23

The gun will be used for standing long range metallic target shooting (500 yds) which is more hunter directed, some 1000 yd although the stock really isn't up to it. Still waiting for the dies, and the scope mounts which are 8/40 and Leo and using turn in Leos. I don't like to use turn ins with this large of scope, a Nightforce 8x32 with NP-P2 ranging reticle.

What about the use of erosion gauges? Why not just measure the amount of erosion?

Hint-rifledude, following the lands with OAL, using bullets in cases, and measuring the migration.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2007 at 12:13
Originally posted by Dale Clifford Dale Clifford wrote:

The gun will be used for standing long range metallic target shooting (500 yds) which is more hunter directed, some 1000 yd although the stock really isn't up to it. Still waiting for the dies, and the scope mounts which are 8/40 and Leo and using turn in Leos. I don't like to use turn ins with this large of scope, a Nightforce 8x32 with NP-P2 ranging reticle.

What about the use of erosion gauges? Why not just measure the amount of erosion?

Hint-rifledude, following the lands with OAL, using bullets in cases, and measuring the migration.

 

Yep, using an OAL dimension with a Stony Point OAL gauge, Sinclair chamber gauge or similar is one way of measuring throat erosion.  Another is physical inspection with a bore scope.

 

This sure is an expensive test!  I hope you were planning on buying and rebarreling a Cooper rifle anyway!  Whatever job you have to be able to afford this... can I send you a resume?!!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2007 at 12:27
You should see the one trying to make major with 9mm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2007 at 12:32
the only thing i wish we could change about this test is the fact that we arent using a run of the mill rifle, i cant afford to do this with my stuff but it would be a neat comparison if we had a higher grade rifle and a standard grade rifle same caliber same loads same barrel lengths etc. ruger 77 or rem 700 against the cooper. that would really grab my attention.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2007 at 14:37
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by Roy Finn Roy Finn wrote:

Cooper uses Wilson rifle barrels which are air guaged and finished lapped.

 

Correct.  Unlike the other custom barrel makers, Wilson isn't a brand used by competitive benchrest shooters, but they do make a better barrel than what comes standard on most factory rifles.  Whether or not they're made to true "match grade" standards, I dunno, but they are very good barrels within the reasonable MSRP of Cooper rifles.

 

Yep, frankly I never heard of Wilson Barrels prior to my Cooper purchase. I do know they make two grades of barrels, one a OEM (WTF that means), and a "match grade" tube. I think that term is used far to much these days. And no, I don't think makers like Hart, Krieger, Lilja etc. have anything to worry about. I do know that each Cooper 22lr has to shoot a 1/4" 5 shot group or less prior to leaving the factory.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2007 at 16:56
Well, that being said, my Marlin, or is it a Savage, cannot remember, .17 HMR, shoots 0.5 inch groups all day long with a cheapo scope and has a bull barrel, but nothing close to match or anything fancy and the same kind of accuracy with my son's rifle in a 22lr.  For that kind of money, that ain't bad at all.  Cooper makes a beautiful rifle, very accurate, but for right now, I will stick with my cheapos, unless I run into alot of cash.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2007 at 19:54

I believe Wilson makes a lot of the barrels used on "match" AR-15 uppers. (if it's the same one).

Roy are those Briley titanium chokes on your Beretta- please go back and elaborate.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/02/2007 at 23:02

 

Target and group from Cooper

 

 

 

Jeez not another leo.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/02/2007 at 23:15

 i found this today quite intresting read, opened my eyes a little

 

http://www.riflebarrels.com/faq_lilja_rifle_barrels.htm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/03/2007 at 10:15
The group from Cooper was a 3 shot group--what do you think is the correct--3,5,10?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2007 at 08:40
The 3 shot test group from Cooper was fired at 40 yards, because that's the max distance they have available to them for testing in their facility.  A 3 shot group may give a good clue as to a rifle's accuracy potential, but 5 shot groups prove a rifles accuracy and is the gold standard for accuracy testing.  With a 5 shot group, there's almost nothing left to luck or chance, and fliers outside the group are easy to identify.  3 shot groups are fine for sighting in or load testing in a heavy recoil rifle, but they are not conclusive proof of average accuracy.  For the purposes of the test, 10-shot groups are unnecessary, and just burn up extra ammo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dale Clifford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/05/2007 at 10:02
Do I get to do it from 40 yds?
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