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Need Help on Bushnell 4200

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tahqua View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 20:28

I had some Signature rings on a Webley Scott Patriot. The inserts are nice, no ring marks. The scope held zero for a couple of shots. This may not apply to the Redfield style ring, but on a hard kicking spring gun with the 3/8 dovetail, the rings moved badly.

Talleys are top drawer mounts. I have them on several guns from .260 Rem up to .375H&H and they don't move, period. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 21:07
Wrong, wrong, wrong root.  He has had a scope on his rifle that worked fine.  Why should he go to Burris signature mounts with plastic inserts that compensate for problems with his rifle, that were never a problem before.  Simplicity is the name of the game.  Don't complicate things, the more you do, the more problems you have.  Swicthing out inserts for mms of difference is inherently insane, unless you have a sloppy rifle.  He has proved he does not.  Do not listen to the words of insanity and go simple, you will be much happier.  Good rings rarely need lapping.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rootmanslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/14/2007 at 23:10
Dolphin I guess you missed this part of his post

"Well, I think it's official now. Weatherby scope shot 6” low the first group. Around 30 clicks moved it about 2” up at 25 yards. I dug the Tasco up and the top adjustment is just about out of range. So it's obvious my mounts are the problem."

He has proven that the mounting system is THE PROBLEM. He tried the scope A,B,C method I suggested and STILL HAD THE PROBLEM.

"good rings rarely need lapping" is why most of the used scope ones sees have ring marks. That will never happen with the Signatures. I suggest you try a set and see what I mean. Switching the inserts can compensate for all kinds of problems before you have to move your internal adjustments.Call Burris and talk with a tech... it's free knowledge.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tkcomer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 06:38

I doubt I'll be able to pull this off today because of the weather, but I'm going to give this thing one more shot. I have a set of 2 piece Leupold bases. Just couldn't find them until now. If this thing still shoots low, I'm thinking something must be wrong with the rings. I don't think the receiver on the gun would be machined wrong. I've also mounted a very old Pacific 4X scope on it. I live in the north east part of Kentucky and it has warmed up to 61 degrees with a howling wind and rain. I doubt I'll get a shot off. I also agree that the Tasco had more vertical adjustment than the 4200. I like the simplicity of the Talley, but if I'm still shooting low, I'll have doubts as to where it is my rings or the gun. If it is the gun, the Burris might be the answer.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 06:39
Again, replace the mounts/rings with a simple pair.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 06:42
You have to read the posts.  I said that lapping rings is rarely needed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tkcomer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 11:04

Results are in. Gun STILL shoots 6” low at 25 yards with the new mounts. After 3 scopes and two mounts, that leaves the rings or the receiver. Pacific scope is kinda funny. Has a circular rainbow haze when you look through it. I guess I'll bite the bullet and get the Tally rings. Whats the difference between the regular and extended rings? SWFA shows two types and the Tally site doesn't say. Of topic, but is there a difference in Weaver style rings and picatinny style rings? This if for the AR-15. I have Weaver style rings on a picatinny base and I'm wondering if that is causing my problem with that gun. Jeeze, what happened to the day of bolt on and go?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 11:13
did you step back to 100, i was out shooting the other day @ 25 my gun was right on at 100 it was like 6 inches high.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 11:26

The extended mount/rings are for scopes with limited distances from the center to the objective and to the eye piece bells, that is a common with long cartridges and short scopes.  With the .308 and the Elite 4200 you have the standard rings, medium height, should be fine.  Let me ask.  When you had the Tasco, did you have to turn the elevation adjusmets way up to get it to sight in correctly or do you remember?  I am having problems believing that a Remington model 700 would be machined that far off.  6 inches off at 25 yards, equates to 24 inches off at 100 yards.  That would be phenomenal, to the point the Burris rings would not correct that (I would have to go back and check the specs for sure, but hightly unlikely) and you would have to go with a 20MOA or if you could find one or have one machined, a 25MOA rail.  I still don't believe it is the rifle.  Are the point of impacts centered?  If they are centered, I would highly doubt the rifle, as if the receiver were that sloppily machined, it should be off center with the barrel also.  Did you have to chew up alot of windage adjustment?  Let me know.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tkcomer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 11:59

The Leupold mounts have a windage adjustment in the back, so I haven't even gotten around to fooling with that in the last two scopes I mounted. Both rings measure about 4.02” from the flat on the base to where the scope sits. Front is a twist in dovetail. The elevation on the Tasco was just a few clicks from the stop. Rifle shot solid 1˝” groups off my wobbly setup. You can see it here: http://www.pixagogo.com/8855594622 Click on the pick to make it bigger. Click on Original to blow it up even bigger. That's just one target I was using that day testing my reloads and fine tuning the Tasco. It's at 103 yards. If it's not the gun, it has to be something wrong with the rings, though I can't spot it. The rings are not “rifle” specific. One style ring fits all the standard bases. The only thing I can think of to is try another complete setup and go from there.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rootmanslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/15/2007 at 23:43
Man you are making this SO HARD!!! Get a 2 piece turn in Burris base set and the matching Signature eccentric rings if you want to fix it NOW   OR you can spend $100s more on all sorts of fancy stuff and maybe end up where you are.
Go to www.brownells.com. Get their tech line #. Talk to a tech. He will tell you what to buy (part #s etc). do what he says (Brownells has the best prices in my experience).
You have been spending more time trying to find reasons and alternative fixes than just doing it now. Trust me, I'm the guy who suggested you try different scopes and that brought you here. The eccentric rings are designed to fix EXACTLY the problem you are having. Just make sure you have a bore sighter and that the adjustments on your scope are at the center of their travel before you begin. IT WILL NOT FAIL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2007 at 06:55
Looking at the pic., I will bet money, your original bases were not for that rifle.  Try the Talleys and let us know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tkcomer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2007 at 14:39

First off, I want to thank everyone for helping me. I'm going to try the simple Talley setup first. If that doesn't work, the Burris will be my second option. The rings should be in Friday, but I work a 12 hour swing shift and it will be at least next week before I can test anything. I hope to get this gun running and then it's on to the AR-15 to figure out why that thing is shooting high and to the left. Thanks again.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2007 at 16:18

tkcomer,

It sounds to me like you may have the STD long range base, which has built-in elevation compensation.

 

If not, you'd be surprised at how often I see receiver screw holes out of alignment and variations in receiver heights front to back even on expensive, well made rifles.  Any misalignment in the receiver or rings stresses the scope when the rings are tightened down, which can cause an excessive amount of W/E compensation to correct.  This is the reason for the inserts in the Burris Signature and similar rings.  I generally lap most rings without the inserts because every single time I've done so, from the most expensive to least expensive rings, I've found a slight mismatch, either due to misalignment in the receiver, mount holes, or the rings themselves.  Everything is manufactured to a certain tolerance.  Keep in mind that even 0.001" (1/1000 in.) misalignment in the rings or receiver front to back will change POI around 3/4" to 1" @ 100 yards.  Say you have a couple thou mismatch in the rings, a few more thou variation in the saddle height of the rings, a couple thou in ring alignment, a couple more thou in receiver height deviation front to back, and a couple more thou in screw hole misalignment.  Everything may technically be within the manufacturers' acceptable tolerance specs, but all these sources of variability stacked up together could mean a serious misalignment that eats up all your scope's W/E adjustment.  I had this very problem with a very high end varmint rifle, wearing a set of 30mm Warne rings.  I simply ran out of adjustment before I could get the rifle zeroed.  Since both rings were interchangeable, I switched them front to back, then lapped the rings with a 30mm rod and lapping compound.  By the time I had enough cleanup to get even contact of my lapping rod on the i.d. of the rings, the lapping had removed at least .005" of material.  When I remounted the scope, bore-sighted it, and returned to the range, I had gained at least 10 MOA of additional scope adjustment!  I like the Burris Signature rings for the simple reason that they eliminate the need for lapping and provide an offset insert option if the standard inserts don't correct the problem.  I don't always use the Burris rings, simply because sometimes I want to use a more elegant looking mount system than the Burris, and I don't mind lapping.  If you go with the Burris rings and the standard inserts that come with them don't work, the offset insert option offers an inexpensive remedy that doesn't require you buy another set of rings.  The radiused shape of the o.d. of the inserts act like gimbals that correct for any up and down, side to side, and front to back misalignment in the receiver.  I assure you that MOST mass-produced factory receivers, from the most expensive on down, have at least some misalignment to some degree.  Ditto for scope mount bases.  You might fix your problem buy buying ANY other set of mounts, depending on the receiver to mount tolerance stackup, but to be absolutely certain of fixing the problem BEFORE spending money on a new set of mounts, I would highly recommend either lapping the rings or getting the Burris Signature rings.  The Talleys are very high quality rings, but again, they are manufactured to an acceptable tolerance, and if your issue is receiver alignment, they may not solve your problem.  Trust me on this; I've seen this same problem crop up numerous times.

 

Good luck and keep us posted on what you find!



Edited by RifleDude
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tkcomer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2007 at 18:26

Thank you for that information. I've already ordered the Talley rings. I'm going for simplicity first. If the Tally setup doesn't work, then I'll try the Burris. To be honest, I don't know how to lap a ring. I've heard of shims, but I'm hoping I don't get into that. Besides, if the gun still shoots 6” low at 25 yards with the new mounts, the Burris will not be able to to adjust that far. Then it will be time to take the gun to a smith. I'm hoping it doesn't get to that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/16/2007 at 18:46
I agree with Rifledude, but after mounting multiple rifles, I just have not run into that many problems using little elevation adjustment at the range.  I have never had to lap my rings to solve any problem.  All of the rifles I have mounted for personal use are all quality and the same for the people I have mounted for.  The key to this equation, is the fact that the Tasco worked fine.  Now over the years, the problems Rifledude mentioned could have occured, thats why I have said to go with new mounts/rings.  The degree to which you are off, would be difficult to correct with the Burris insets alone.  The combination or errors mentioned would statistically meausure in different directions, averaging out problems, but could all lead in the downward direction.  Will see though, when you get the Talley mounts.  They are relatively inexpensive and can always be used on another Remington if they do not work out.
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