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off topic question about guns

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RifleDude View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 19:04

ahuebel,

If elk hunting is going to be the primary use, I'd highly recommend you consider a stainless rifle with synthetic stock, for a couple reasons.  First, elk hunting is tough on equipment with all the climbing up and down steep terrain, and a wood-stocked rifle can take a severe beating and look bad in short order.  Second, it snows frequently in high-altitude elk country, and stainless resists rust better, and synthetic stocks don't swell and warp when wet like wood can, which can alter your point of impact in the middle of a hunt.  Just overall less maintenance and worry involved with a stainless/synthetic rifle in that environment.  For deer and hogs out of a treestand or covered blind, this may be less of a worry.  The romantic inside me prefers the look and feel of beautiful wood, but sometimes I have to make concessions for practicality's sake.  This doesn't mean a wood stocked, blued rifle is necessarily a bad choice, it's just in wet, rugged environments you might have to baby it more if you want to keep it looking good.

 

The Sako 75/85 is a very nice rifle.  I have two 75s and one of the things I really like about it is its smooth feeding.  This perceived smoothness varies a little bit with the shape of cartridge the rifle's chambered for, but with both of mine, I sometimes have to open the bolt again to verify I actually chambered a round, it's so smooth.  Sako triggers are very good hunting triggers as well, and can be adjusted to a nice, crisp, light (for hunting) pull.  So far, I've found them to be pretty accurate on average, though there are always exceptions with any model hunting rifle.  I generally prefer a more straight, "classic" style stock, but the Sako stock design feels good to me, and I like its lines.

 

Truth be told, any of the well-known manufacturers bolt actions will serve you well as a big game hunting rifle, so it really boils down to what feels best to you and fits in your budget.  Like all shooters, I have my own preferences which I won't go into.  I can tell you that, on average, a bolt action will give you greater accuracy potential, is safer,  simpler and therefore potentially more reliable than other action types, though most any action type will work fine for big game at most reasonable ranges, provided the rifle is chambered in an appropriate caliber for the intended game.  I agree the various 7mm Mags and .30-06 are sensible "all-around" choices that don't produce excessive recoil for most shooters.  One of the advantages of the -06 and at least the standard 7mm REM mag is the fact that, if you don't plan to handload, no matter where you go, even remote stores that carry ammo will almost always have ammo for either.  If you can handle a little more recoil, the various .300 magnums are also an excellent choice, and will be a bit more versatile on N. American game at the larger end of the scale.  Ditto for the .338 mag, but for many folks, its recoil starts becoming a little objectionable.

 

Good luck with your search, and keep us posted on what you decide.  Remember, Man Law clearly states that anything inherently cool needs no additional justification to purchase, and guns definitely fit that category! 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 19:06
Originally posted by ranburr ranburr wrote:

I would just like to point out, take anything Chuck Hawks says with a grain of salt.  There has never been a product that he didn't like as long as you pay him enough money.

 

ranburr

 

As I mentioned on another thread, Chuck has is a very knowledgeable individual.  I have communicted with him on multiple occasions by e-mail and he swears he does not take any money from his advertisers.  Read his review on the Tikka T3 rifle and you may see what I mean.  My review was similar, except that I came away with a positive outlook.  His major grip as was mine, was the cheap cut out for the ejection port, that is small and makes it difficult to remove a shell with your fingers, if you did not use enough force to eject if fully.  This is as opposed to a fully forged action from one piece of steel.  He also, if I remember carefully, that the wooden stock on the Hunter model was rather cheap, which I also commented on.  But overall, the rifle had a smooth as silk action and was accurate and light weight and my review was overall positive, but not equal to my belove Wby. Vanguard, only by a slight margin.  His was negative and I can understand his reasons, but quite harsh.  His other ifno on his site is reasonably accurate and well organized.  But, it is not the tell all, know all site.  There are many others.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Acenturian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 19:22

i'm sure smaller calibers can kill and elk but you had better really place the bullet in the exact spot to do it, does not leave very much margin of error.

 

The 7MM is a good all around choice flat shooting packs a good punch but for some it is definitly a step up in recoil. 

 

I would have to say keep it simple. There is all kinds of wizz bag uber cartridges on the market and more freezers are packed and mounts put on the wall every year with the good old .30/.06 it's been getting the job done from rabbits to bear every year for the last 100 years. It's .30 caliber and perhaps the most common at that. You can get bullets in light weight down to a 120 gr (maybe even lower) all the way up to a 220 gr that is some versitility. Plus you can walk into any gun store, drug store or any place that sells ammo and I know they will have .30.06 that may not be the case for some of the short mags, or .25 caliber guns out there.

 

My second choice would be the .270 Winchester (not short mag) standard. Still pretty common and is basically a .30.06 necked down with a .27 caliber bullet on top instead of the .30 cal. You can get lighter bullets since it is a smaller caliber but on the down side you can't get as big (heavy) of bullets as a .30/06.

 

If I was going to be doing a lot of Elk hunting I might step up to one of the various .30 caliber magnums. A .338 is a great choice but the larger .338 is not as versital as a .30 for smaller game. I have a friend that uses a .300 Ulta Mag and it will pretty much take anything walking on this side of the planet and while it dishes out some pretty impressive speed and muzzle energy the down side is it rocks pretty good in the recoil department. 

 

Again I think it is pretty hard to top the .30.06 recoil while more then a .243 is not bad and the average shooter can get pretty proficient with it. There is all kids of loads for this round. It's about the most common hunting cartridge in North America and for good reason.

 

Happy Shooting

AC

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 20:40
i am not a fan of the 270 dont ask me why, i love 30 cal. you have a huge range of weight of bullets to choose from but some people dont care for the recoil, i prefer the 280 to to the 270, i dont forsee myself ever owning a 270 i have bought a 6.5 rem mag and i would love to own a 280, i have a 30-06 300 win and 300wsm they are work but the later two can be a little bit rude on the bench.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OK hunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 21:43

There's lots of knowledge in this thread and certainly no shortage of opinions.  First, if you are going to be considering an UltraMag, SAUM, WSM or to a certain extent, Weatherby Mag, be aware that some places may have a limited selection of ammo.  This is not important unless you are 20 minutes from your elk camp and remember you left your ammo in the trunk of your car-at the airport.  You may be okay but you may also may find there aren't as many ammo offerings as you had at home.

 

Next, an elk is a big animal.  To do it justice, which is a quick, humane kill, you want all the gun you can manage.  Many guys use the .30-06 recoil as the upper limit of what an average shooter can handle.  You need to be aware that a bigger gun with a bigger bore shooting a bigger bullet will offer a better than average chance of crossing your eyes when you touch off a round.  You don't want to flinch at ths shot when a bull in filling up your scope.  

 

 So, evaluate several calibers & see if you can shoot some that may appeal to you.  This will help you in your decision.  If the recoil feels like the fist of God on your shoulder when the gun goes off, you may want to keep looking, if that bothers you.  For elk, I wouldn't recommend anything less than 7mm bore.  7MM Rem. Mag, .280 Rerm are two good ones.  In 30 caliber, the .30-06 is still popular because it still works.  The 300 Win Mag is also a good one.  Above that, the .338 Win Mag is a lot of rifle, with a lot of recoil and noise when fired.

 

If you are going to hunt whitetails, the .260 Rem. is a wonderful caliber, as is the 7MM-08 Rem. and .308 Win.  The good news to all this is that after you buy your first rifle, you will begin to want to investigate additional calibers and before you know it, you'll have several in your safe-just like the rest of us.  Welcome to the club.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fwinn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 22:34
i live in texas and thought new mexico had a minimum caliber.  i tried to find it but couldn't,  but did find some others in my search.  kentucky said a minimum of .270.  oregon and washington had a .24 minimum on deer and a .30 on elk,  so it will a lot depend on where you are gonna hunt.  i guess if you wanted to be on the safe side you could get the 30/06 or a 300 win mag.  i have a 300 win mag and recoil on it doesn't seem to be any worse than my 7mm mag.  there are great recoil pads out now as well that really do reduce felt recoil.  my belief is that if you have a good comfortable gun,  a good recoil pad, and a good trigger and you'll be good to go.  oh,  by the way,  you will need a good scope as well,  but there are plenty of other posts for that
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ahuebel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 23:18

Thanks for all of the wonderful opinions. While I want a versatile gun capable of hunting elk, most of my time will be spent in east texas hunting whitetail and hogs, and once per year in mississippi hunting whitetail. Armed with what little I know right now, I am leaning toward the 7-08. I suppose synthetic stock isnt out of the question but I have a few old guns passed down to me all with wood stock and I love them. This gun will be an everyday rifle but I hope it to be something I pass down to my kids.

 

As for scope, I am pretty sure I know what scope I want based on some info from this website. Do you think I should wait until I have the gun to order the scope? I am looking at the S&B 3-12x50 with either the 7 or 8 reticle. I'll be going to a gun show in Houston on the 20th so hopefully I can put a number of guns in my hands.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trinidad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/11/2007 at 23:27

Sounds great ahuebel,let us know what you decide on and I wish you the best of luck at the show.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rootmanslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2007 at 00:03
Well since I live in Elk country and see more than few killed every year I guess I can weigh in.
Biggest error most people make is to be overgunned. They read the crap that says an Elk cannot be killed with anything less than a 340 weatherby or some other roaring shoulder crusher.
Most folks who do not shoot 1000 rounds of high power per year, are not into trying 1/2 mile ego trip shots and hire a good outfitter would be well served with the good old 30-06. With a premium 165-180 grain bullet, well placed it will kill any Elk that close enough to be responsibly shot at.
The second biggest error I see is scope overkill.You dont need a 6-20x56 scope for elk. A 2-7 or 3-9 or dare I say a fixed 4 mounted as low as you can will suffice to shoot an animal as big or bigger than the horse you rode in on.
A guide friend had a sad experience with just such an ill advised hunter last year who saved for years to come to WY to get his Elk. He hunted for 20+ years in PA with a 270 bolt action but all his "expert" buddies said that a 270 was too small. He bought the 340 WB with the 6-18 scope and proceeded to miss 3 bulls at less than 100 yards. Flinching like the devil and scared (don't blame him) of the 340s rather fast violent recoil. One of the guides lent him an old battered M70 308 with an M8 6X (I said it is old!). After 10 or so shots at the camp range he proceeded to whack a nice 6X5 at 130 paces with a 180 Nosler partition handload. One shot one kill.
My own opinion is that a 7mag or 308 is about the minimum for most folks who may only have a few days to hunt and be faced with a less than the perfect standing broadside shot. I know one old timer who has killed more Elk than most of us will ever see. He can hunt the whole season and picks his shots and hunts for meat (cow calf license). He told me than in 1955 he upgraded from a 92 in 32-20 to a 94 in 30-30 because he wanted (I quote)
 more power. My own choice is a Sauer 90 Lux in 375 H&H with Barnes old X 270 gr handloads and another of those old M8 6Xs. I have the advantage of hunting the whole season and shooting 1000 plus rounds of high power ever year. And believe it or not the 375 H&H is much more pleasant to shoot than a 340 WM or any of the Ultra mags. (big push vs an Ali jab). Another advatage to a used 30-06 is that you can get a minty one usually cheaper than a more glamours caliber.
Finally, join the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and patronize one of the outfitters who advertise in Bugle (the RMEF magazine). That will help ensure a positive experience for you. Good hunting!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2007 at 05:45
Good post root.  The 340WBY is still a good caliber for various reasons.  Read  David Petzal's article in Field and Stream March 2006.  He addresses the use of this caliber the 338Win. and the 338RUM as niche caliber for large North American game.  But, as you well addressed, these are not the only calibers necessary, unless longer shots are needed and for the most part I would agree, you can get by with smaller calibers just as easily.  Unfortunately, I have never had the opportunity to shoot Elk.  I have a friend who can hook me up with some people in Washington state next year.  How, is the Elk hunting up there?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonbravado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2007 at 07:08

i vote 30.06 - you can fire varmint rounds all the way up to 230 grn rounds out of it - that is the definition of versatility.

 

i would also reccommend 7mm08 - great flat shooting 140 grn round w/ plenty of knockdown - kicks like a baby.

 

and while i am reccommending things, the Tikka T3 line is amazing - great sako action, barrels, and triggers - mine is a tack driver.

 

www.tikka.fi for more info.

 

my 2 cents -

 

J

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SwattedOut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2007 at 08:20

Are you familiar with the book, "One man, One Rifle"? The author successfully killed every species and subspecies of huntable animals in North America over a twenty five year period wih a 30-06. Can't go wrong there. However, I hate recoil in rifles  and some loads can be stiff in a 30-06.(No, I'm not a wimp, I just believe the flinch factor affects accuracy.) For me, the 270 wsm is the one rifle that I would choose. With a Winchester accubond, I saw it completely penetrate a 275 hog and also a 350 plus pound hog. Both hogs traveling less than fifteen yards. Every deer that we shot, pretty much crumbled on the spot. No neck or spine shots, all behind the shoulder or on the shoulder. Always complete penetration. Love them two holes.I don't know if it is the cartridge or the limbsaver pad, but the recoil is unbelievably light. My son has used it since he was thirteen and has been deadly accurate since day one. I believe a factory loaded 140 grain is around 3200 fps. Good luck with your choice.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceylonc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2007 at 09:00
Originally posted by SwattedOut SwattedOut wrote:

Are you familiar with the book, "One man, One Rifle"? The author successfully killed every species and subspecies of huntable animals in North America over a twenty five year period wih a 30-06. Can't go wrong there. However, I hate recoil in rifles  and some loads can be stiff in a 30-06.(No, I'm not a wimp, I just believe the flinch factor affects accuracy.) For me, the 270 wsm is the one rifle that I would choose. With a Winchester accubond, I saw it completely penetrate a 275 hog and also a 350 plus pound hog. Both hogs traveling less than fifteen yards. Every deer that we shot, pretty much crumbled on the spot. No neck or spine shots, all behind the shoulder or on the shoulder. Always complete penetration. Love them two holes.I don't know if it is the cartridge or the limbsaver pad, but the recoil is unbelievably light. My son has used it since he was thirteen and has been deadly accurate since day one. I believe a factory loaded 140 grain is around 3200 fps. Good luck with your choice.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences with the 270WSM.  Sounds like a great caliber.  I hunt in S. Alabama where deer & hogs are the main game from 30-300yds.  Of the 3 other hunters on this lease, all of us have sons from age 3-5 and finding a rifle/caliber that will do the trick without beating the crap out of them is going to be a priority soon.  Looks like we can add 270WSM to the list (along with 257 Roberts, 260 Rem, 7mm/08).

 

I agree with you that many hunters have accuracy issues due to "recoil flinching."  I'm a big guy (6" 255lbs) and in years past never hesitated to bench shoot 7mmMag, 300Mag, 338Mag, etc. but see no reason to shoot a caliber with a lot of recoil for hunting deer, etc.  No reason getting punished when there are other calibers that are tame on recoil and get the job done humanely.   

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonbravado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2007 at 09:01

the ONLY bad thing about a 270 that i have seen is that some bullets will blow right through the body and if it doesn't

hit a bone or vital, the deer will run for miles.  i have tracked a few deer for a long distance with a 270 which my buddy

thought was a 'kill shot' - i like the power of an 06 w/ a 165 grn btsp - the 'baseball bat' effect is what i call it.

 

i had an 8 lb 30-06, that kicked like a 243 - sako, trg-s - if you get a heavier 06, that is a wonderful weapon.

 

270 is a great gun, just a bit too fast out of the muzzle for my tastes.

 

J

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonbravado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2007 at 09:03

i shot a 7mmMag w/ a synthetic stock the other day - like a cannon shooting a BB - ahahah -

 

shot 12 times on paper - will NEVER shoot it again.  too much gun for me.

 

ugh.

 

J

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rootmanslim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2007 at 09:41
Another vote for the 06'. Most flexible, most available and lots of minty used ones at far less $ than some current fad cartridge. (My current favorite is the 325 WSM. I think it's a 8mm but the marketing guys cant admit that. Look at the ballistics on the "obsolete" 8x57 as loaded by out euro friends, look at the 8x60 or dare I suggest look at the old wildcat the 8mm06. Hmm doubt if anything punched with a H Mantle from one of those obsolete underpowered numbers would laugh and run away cause it wasn't a 325 WSM!)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2007 at 11:25
Any of several calibers is acceptable for elk. I would probably pick a 30-06 or 300 Win Mag, but a 270  or 280 is also a fine choice. On the heavy end I have hunted them with .375 H&H  and one of my firends uses 338 Win Mag, but the guy I know who kills the most elk shoots a .270 --- probably helps that he's a retired Army Sgt Major Sniper Instructor.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2007 at 11:31
you dont need to be a sniper to kill elk with a .270, im sorry but the 270 as much as i hate it is just fine for anyone to use on elk
They call me "Boots"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2007 at 11:53

On the subject of recoil, one thing to consider that also has an effect on felt recoil is stock design.  The wider the cross-section at the butt, the more evenly distributed the recoil force is over a larger area of your shoulder.  I personally find a more straight comb to be more comfortable on a heavy recoiling rifle vs. a Monte Carlo style comb.  You can also replace your recoil pad with an aftermarket replacement very easily and cheaply.  One I've found to be excellent in this regard is the Sims Limbsaver pad, which is available pre-sized for various popular rifles.  Of course, you can always add a muzzle brake, which can cut felt recoil significantly, sometimes as much as 50% depending on the design of the brake.  Brakes also increase blast noise, can add a couple inches length to the rifle, could make the barrel slightly more difficult to clean, and if you ever shoot close to the ground, can stir up a lot of dust.  Keep in mind, you won't notice recoil as much when hunting as you do from the bench, because of the excitement of the hunt and the fact you generally don't fire too many shots on a typical big game hunt.  A muzzle brake can be unscrewed when hunting, the threads replaced with a cap, then reattached when shooting from the bench, however this in some cases will change your rifle's point of impact.

 

If I were pressed for an an all-purpose, do everything in N. America rifle, the .30-06 and one of the various .300 mags would be on my short list.  However, I'm not a believer in the "one rifle for everything" concept, as I don't ever want to be faced with the trauma of only having one rifle!  It has become a well-worn cliche, but it's very true -- bullet placement is far more important than the actual caliber chosen.  It's hard to execute well-placed shots with a rifle that punishes you too much, causing you to develop a bad flinch.  Barring the absurd extremes on either end of the caliber spectrum -- way too small or way too large -- almost all "middle of the road" centerfire cartridges with the right bullets are at least adequate for most N. American game, provided you understand and adhere to the limitations of cartridge and rifle.

 

Good Shooting!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/12/2007 at 12:00
I have had the opposite experience with respect to recoil, or maybe its just my liking for Weatherbys.  I have the monte carlo stocks, at least on my magnum Weatherbys to be more comfortable, but then again, this is purely subjective, as I do not own two exact rifles in the exact same caliber, with the two different stocks.  Roy, claims to have designed his stock to better handle the recoil of his magnums.  I am rather stout and recoil and flinching has not been a big problem for me, maybe that is another reason I don't think about it that much.
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