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Dolphin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 08:29

A .223 is getting light for deer, unless you are confident in your ability to take head shots.  The odds of wounding an animal with a .223 and having to trail it and never finding it are high with a .223.  Ethically, I would use a larger caliber and have the latitude to be somewhat off on the shot and have the ability to take longer shots, as most of my shots have been between 100 to 200 yards in NC.  I have never had a deer run and ever one has dropped at the site, using everything from a 257wby to a 300wby.  Last year I used a 300 win. mag with 150grain Remington Core Lokt.  Yes the recoil is significant, but I only took 3 shots and took 3 deer.  Used 5 cartridges to sight the rifle, using a rest.  My tolerance for recoil is good, as I am relativley stout and have been shooting since a kid.  The only rifle thus far that has pushed my limits, somewhat, is my custom 340 Wby, but not enough to ever leave it in the closet.

  One more thing.  I probably should have not used the word ethical (or the derivative) as it is always the hunters choice and the word seems always to be used by hunters who always have a green or liberal agenda.  So if it was offensive, it was not meant to be.  Sorry for the choice of words.

D. Overton North Carolina

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NC-amature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 09:07

Here's a good source for comparison when considering different calibers and recoil energy.  I used it to narrow my choices when buying a rifle for my daughter.  Settled on a 243 for her.

 

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

 

I realize that many readers here are not a fan of Chuck Hawks.  But the link above is based more on raw data than opinion.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mwyates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 10:04

A .223 is a bit light for deer, especially the larger subspecies, but he's not really wanting a "deer rifle".  A good shot with a .223 is better than a bad one with a .300 Mag, and a 60gr Partition through the heart will bring down any deer in short order.  I don't believe in head shots.  My uncle, who never hunted with anything but a .22 Rimfire used heart shots and never lost game.  (and I mean always used a .22, even for doves and quail).  The key is learning to shoot your rifle well and pass on marginal shots.

 

I don't shoot a rifle much anymore, but after 50 years of hunting I've learned that good shots and good bullets are the key, not muzzle energy.  My .243 does everything I need it to, and for the "Big stuff" I get out my .260

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NC-amature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 10:46

I agree with mwyates that the key is learning to shoot well for both hunting and target.  A component of shooting well is handling the recoil, which varies not just between calibers, but also between loads of the same caliber.  If you are not comfortable because you are always flinching or preparing for the kick, then you will more often not shoot well.  That is why I used Chuck's table. . .so I have a reference for how hard things kick.

 

I have a 270 and use 130 grn rounds exclusively for hunting.  I've also found that at the range I'm only good for 20 rounds.  After that, my shoulder hurts too much.  Luckily, my best single day hunting, I took 4 shots in 30 minutes. . .all kills between 60-80 yds (the farmer had a nuisance permit). 

 

After sighting in my daughters 243, I'm now in the market for one of those for myself.  I'm a better shot with that rifle than my 270, which I firmly believe is due to the difference in the kick.  But that's just for me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tip69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 11:11

I was considering getting my 12 yr old son a .260 for deer hunting.  Maybe I should go with the .243.  Has anyone out there shot a .260 & .243 from the same make gun?  What was the difference in recoil?  I have a .243 BAR... which would help with recoil, but its pretty heavy for him.

 

Also, from that table.... looks like the 7mm-08 might have less recoil compared to the .260 both using a 140 grain bullet......why would that be true?    Anybody shot these two in same rifle set up?

take em!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NC-amature Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 11:29

Tip,

 

I haven't used either, but according to the table there is a 1/2 lb difference in the weight of the rifles, which impacts recoil energy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thinkingman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 11:55
Originally posted by Tip69 Tip69 wrote:

I was considering getting my 12 yr old son a .260 for deer hunting.  Maybe I should go with the .243.  Has anyone out there shot a .260 & .243 from the same make gun?  What was the difference in recoil?  I have a .243 BAR... which would help with recoil, but its pretty heavy for him.

 

Also, from that table.... looks like the 7mm-08 might have less recoil compared to the .260 both using a 140 grain bullet......why would that be true?    Anybody shot these two in same rifle set up?

Notice all of these choices are based on the .308 cartridge.

I bought a 7mm-08.

For a younger shooter, you can't go wrong with a .243.

Ammo everywhere and a good shooter.

IF you are interested in handloading, buy a Lee Anniversary kit and handload down for practice and lighter game, load hot with premium bullets for bigger game or longer shots.

7mm has lots of bullet choices.

.308 case IS inherently more accurate and efficient than the '06-based cartridges.

Shorter powder column.....most benchrest cartridges are short and fat.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote scudder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 12:04
Just thinking out loud here, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea of being able to go to the range with a couple boxes of ammo and not have to worry about my shoulder. The nearest range is about a half hour from my house, and driving out to shoot a dozen or twenty rounds is a little silly. Perhaps it'd be best to throw hunting out of the equation, at least for now, and go with a .223. After all, I could always use hunting as an excuse to buy another rifle! Not to mention not having to drag my "range rifle" through the woods with me. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 12:41
Originally posted by mwyates mwyates wrote:

A .223 is a bit light for deer, especially the larger subspecies, but he's not really wanting a "deer rifle".  A good shot with a .223 is better than a bad one with a .300 Mag, and a 60gr Partition through the heart will bring down any deer in short order.  I don't believe in head shots.  My uncle, who never hunted with anything but a .22 Rimfire used heart shots and never lost game.  (and I mean always used a .22, even for doves and quail).  The key is learning to shoot your rifle well and pass on marginal shots.

 

I don't shoot a rifle much anymore, but after 50 years of hunting I've learned that good shots and good bullets are the key, not muzzle energy.  My .243 does everything I need it to, and for the "Big stuff" I get out my .260

Your uncle was a darn good shot, if he was hitting dove and quail in flight.  I am not sure why you do not like head shot.  Unless it is a trophy buck you want to mount, it is the fastest and surest way of taking down an animal and not disrupting any of the meat, too include allowing it to run and build up lactic acid, which accounts to a large extent for the so called "gamey" taste.  The problem is, you have to be confident in your abilities and your equipment, as more than likely you will either hit and kill or miss completely.  Now that means taking a proper head shot somewhat forward of the base of the neck where there is some latitude, so that any strike, except through his hide is going to take him down.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote silver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 12:47

 

Hmmm.... I do find shooting my M-1 in a match tiring, but I am not sore from it? Should I be ashamed? 180 grain .308s after a couple of boxes I find noticable.  My SGT 870 when the side sadle is loaded shooting slug loads, feels like shooting shooting my .308.  My Ithica 37 with buck shot is uncomfortable, but controlable.  Use slugs in the same skiny stocked gun is a "mother". 

 

I have some mixed feelings on this issue of recoil.  Let me qoute Yogi "Ninety percent of this game is half mental."  If you think that the gun is going to kick it will.  No two people are alike.  Everyone handles recoil differantly.  That is because of many factors like how the person holds the gun, how the gun fits the person and how much the person weighs.  Stap on a couple of bar bell weights and see if the gun kicks as much? 

 

Most of the people who shoot from the bench are not "Chicken WInging" the gun like they should be and that increases the felt recoil.  You need to get the arm up so that the muscle does not get in the way.  You get a more stable platform because as there is less muscle then there is a more consitant contact with the bone.

"If we weren't all crazy we, We would go insane."   Jimmie Buffet

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 12:47
Originally posted by scudder scudder wrote:

Just thinking out loud here, but the more I think about it the more I like the idea of being able to go to the range with a couple boxes of ammo and not have to worry about my shoulder. The nearest range is about a half hour from my house, and driving out to shoot a dozen or twenty rounds is a little silly. Perhaps it'd be best to throw hunting out of the equation, at least for now, and go with a .223. After all, I could always use hunting as an excuse to buy another rifle! Not to mention not having to drag my "range rifle" through the woods with me. 


That's probably a good idea.  This way you can get a heavy barrel target rifle and a lighter barrel hunting rifle.  As for the calibers, I would recommend yo ustick with calibers that have a lot fo factory ammo available.  223Rem and 308Win are probably at the top of the heap there.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mwyates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 13:46

Tip69

 

I have a Kimber Montana in 243 and a Kimber Classic in .260.  The only difference is a few ounces. and both are very light rifles. I shoot 120 gr bullets in the  260 and 90-100 in the 243.  The 260 has a bit more recoil than the 243, but not much.  I put my son in a .260 when he was 12 and he loves it.  He used to be pretty recoil sensitive, too.

 

I would recommend the .260.  It has the great advantage of going up to 160gr bullets, where the 243 tops out at 100gr.  The .6.5 X 55 has a long history in the Scandanavian countries of being and excellent moose cartridge, and a moose is several times larger than a deer.  Ballistically, the 6.5 X 55 and the 260 are equal.  6.5mm bullets have high sectional density and as a result penetrate better than equivalvent weights in larger calibers.

 

I'm not too sure about that Chuck Hawks table.  Here's the best ballistic calculators I know of, including recoil:

 

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/index.htm

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trinidad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 14:58

For a great target caliber and some hunting the .308 is exellent.The Elite 4200 scopes are in your price range and they are a exeptional value costing less and outperforming higher priced scopes. I would also recommend a rifle with a medium taper fluted barrel and a 2.5 lb trigger pull. Good luck and happy shooting.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thinkingman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/31/2006 at 18:15

If I were you, I would buy a HEAVY .308 for bench shooting and a lightweight .243 or 7mm-08 for hunting.

All are excellent cartridges.

At the bench, weight is your friend.

In the mountains, weight is your enemy.

Don't buy a Leupold scope unless it's a giveaway price....too many other choices out there.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tip69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 11:30

mwyates....... Great update, thanks.  I new the .260 was a good deer round, but I couldn't remember the reason.  So thanks for the "sectional density" lesson!

 

I shot a very nice buck one time with a 100grn .243 and he more or less laughed at me...... he ran far enough WITHOUT looking worse for wear and my brother-in-law ended up "getting" him.  He was standing about 75 yds away when I shot and I had time to make decent shot.  So I'm not really wanting to set him up with the .243.

 

Now all you .243 lovers don't go willy nilly on me.  I know .243 is an okay deer round, its just you have less room for error. 

take em!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dolphin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 12:19
A  6.5 mm is a great caliber for hunting and I agree it leaves you with less error.  Its interesting, I cannot remember on what thread on this site it was on, but I was somewhat spanked for recommeding a larger caliber to the individual for deer hunting and the person stated that his uncle used a rimfire .22 to hunt deer and never lost one, making perfect heart/lung shots.  I still countered and recommeded a larger caliber not only that but I forget the other size (even though I still like the 6 mms), because, not only do you have more room for error, but you can take longer shots.  Good to see, that someone agrees.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Roy Finn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 14:06
I get quite a kick out of folks that use Ultra Mags, WSM's, Shamu's, etc for hunting deer size game. Any of the above mentioned rounds like the 260, 7-08, 243 or 308 will work fine on this size game. I certainly would NEVER contemplate using a 22 rimfire or any of the 22 centerfire rounds for that matter for deer hunting. I'm not even sure that you can use the 22 caliber centerfire class in most states for big game. Where I hunted in NY state, I believe 24 caliber was the minimum. The 223 would be an excellent choice for target use with the availability of cheap ammo and light recoil.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ceylonc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 20:14
Another big fan here of the .260 Remington.  Been using a rifle in this caliber on deer & hogs for over 5 years now.  The round offers excellent terminal performance and is very accurate out of my rifle.  Recoil is next to nothing, making it a great selection for young or recoil-averse hunters.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote smithrjd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/02/2006 at 23:13

 Another vote for 6.5mm it is a very flexiable cartridge with bullet weights from 100 grains to 160 grains. Very good sectional desity and ballistic coefficent as well. Brass is not as readily available as the 223 or 308 however. Recoil is light about the same as a 243. I have both a 243 and 6.5x55. The old Swede is my favorite rifle. I have won many "hunter" benchrest competitions with the Sako. Excellent deer rifle as well. The Remington 260 is a similiar cartridge, based I believe on the 308. The one advantage to the 6.5x55 is it can for the most part be loaded to a longer OAL  than the 260, this is a good thing with heavy bullets. The old stand by 3X9 scope would work well.  Not to many "overall" rifles, for me the 243 and 6.5mm are about the best. Next in the recoil line would be the 308. 

 

HTH

 

Ron

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mwyates Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/03/2006 at 10:35
I wouldn't recommend that anyone hunt deer with a .22 rimfire, and is not legal in most states.  My uncle was a champion shooter who won many shotgun, rifle, and pistol competitions.  He died when I was fairly young, but I remember watching him throw up a 4oz evaporated mik can (no more than 2" in diameter) and hit it 5 times before it came down.  This was with and old pump action .22.  He never used a scope in his life.
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