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nikon monarchs or leupold wind river? |
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Exoman
Optics GrassHopper Joined: September/16/2006 Status: Offline Points: 37 |
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Posted: September/21/2006 at 23:45 |
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im looking at the 12 x 50 wind river olympics:
http://www.swfa.com/pc-3322-320-leupold-12x50-wind-river-oly mpic-binocular.aspx and the 12 x 56 monarchs: http://www.swfa.com/pc-6888-646-nikon-12x56-monarch-atb-bino cular.aspx Ive personally used a the 8 x 42 monarchs with some frequency last year(hunting friend had some) but havent touched the leupolds. whats your opinion? |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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WHy 12x? Unless you are a very experienced binocular user with exceptionally steady hands, you can't take advantage of 12x magnification due to hand tremors.
By and large, 10x is the most people can use with stabilization or a bipod. ILya |
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Bird Watcher
Optics Master Joined: August/30/2006 Status: Offline Points: 1523 |
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Have you had an opportunity to look thru the Nikon Monarch 12x56? If you will be using these in low-light situations, at dusk or dawn, they will be greatly appreciated.
I can handhold a Nikon 16x for brief periods of time. Also, you can sit down & use your elbows on your knees for support if you don't want to bother with a monopod. I have looked thru the Leupold Olympic 12x50 & they are very nice & bright indeed. They are not too big or bulky. The Nikon Monarch's are one of the two best "entry level" binoculars according to luzcnik's evaluation. Guys who are into binocular astronomy handhold binoculars up to 25x80(Steiner's) for brief periods of time & think nothing of it. I also handhold my Pentax 20x60 PCF WP II's for short periods. Personally I enjoy using high power bino's. Each of us is different & as long as you are aware of your own personal limitations I would encourage you to check out both of these fine binoculars at a local sporting good store. Have Fun! p.s. If the weight of the Nikon Monarchs are not a problem for you, at 42 ozs., I would give them a "First Choice" between the two. |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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I guess everyone's application is different. I tend to be glassing for a while trying to spot something, so high magnification binoculars do ot work well for me. For hunting use I would certainly go with a lower magnification.
ILya |
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anweis
Optics Master Joined: January/29/2006 Status: Offline Points: 1148 |
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bigger is not better.
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Exoman
Optics GrassHopper Joined: September/16/2006 Status: Offline Points: 37 |
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well It may look silly but I have found while standing if you turn your arms in to fall on you chest that helps to staliblize. out side of hand tremors is there a reason why 12x would be disadvantageous? leupolds guide suggested 10 x 42 for hunting applications, but what would a little more oomph hurt?
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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WIth higher magnification, in addition to detail lost to hand tremor, you get lower brightness, worse depth perception, more need to refocus, etc. It is generally harder to make a high magnification optical instrument, since all the optical faults are magnified. ILya |
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lucznik
Optics Master Joined: November/27/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1436 |
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A fairly popular outdoor writer, John Barsness has written that for open country glassing, he prefers 12x glass. Though, in the same article he suggests 8x as the best all-around option for beginners and indicates that his go-to glass is a 10x.
Stability is really a fairly subjective issue. We had a fairly lengthy debate about this earlier this year. What it comes down to (I think) is that some people have trouble holding higher magnification glass steady while others don't. 12x glass could be really nice, if you are glassing rather open terrain and you have the ability to hold them steady (especially after a long hike or a sprint up a mountain, etc.) or if you're going to be mounting them on a tripod, window mount, etc.
Stability issues aside, ther are two things you should also keep in mind as you consider the 12x option.
Birdwatcher is absolutely correct; I do feel that the Nikon Monarch is one of the best binocular deals available but, I have not seen their 12x glass so, I don't know if they are as good as their low-powered siblings. Part of this will (of course) depend on how demanding you are with your optics. My friend is probably going to buy one of the 12x56s pretty soon so, I'll get a chance to see them in the (hopefully) near future. |
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Bird Watcher
Optics Master Joined: August/30/2006 Status: Offline Points: 1523 |
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ILya,
Higher magnification does not always equal lower brightness. That is why these optics companies are going to 50mm, 56mm, 60mm, 70mm & 80mm for some 12x bino's.(70mm & 80mm being aimed mostly at astronomy buffs) For exampe, Leupold Olympic series 10x25 has a twilight factor of 15.8 & the 10x50's are 22.4 & the 12x50's have a twilight factor of 22.5. So, you can see from Leupold's product specifications chart that there is a gain in overall brightness. However the Olympic 10x25's weigh 14.8 ozs. whereas the 10x50's weigh 25.7 ozs. & the 12x50's also weigh 25.7 ozs. Compare that to the Nikon Monarch 12x56 which weighs in at 42 ozs: a whopping 2lbs. & 10 ozs.(relative brightness 22.1) The Fujinon 12x60HB I mentioned has a relative brightness of 25 but weighs 56 ozs or 3.5 lbs. So, if Exoman goes for the Nikons he might definitely want to consider a good binocular harness to hold the extra weight in place. |
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lucznik
Optics Master Joined: November/27/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1436 |
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I agree, magnification is not the only thing that affects brightness. Disregarding issues like lens coatings, internal baffeling, etc., brightness is controlled primarily by the relationship between magnification and objective lens size. Which means however, (as you have indicated) in order to maintain an equal level of brightness a higher magnification binocular must also involve appropriately larger objective lenses, which generally means greater bulk and weight (relative to their lower magnification siblings.) That extra bulk can prove problematic, depending on the activity in question.
Koshkin is (of course) correct to point out that the higher magnification will likely involve an increase in the amount of detail lost to hand tremor, worse depth perception, more need to refocus, etc. and therefore is generally best used by someone who has had significant "behind the glass" experience and knows exactly what they are getting/losing when choosing a high magnification glass.
This extra weight of the Monarch could be a pain to tote around but on the other hand, it would also make it easier to hold steady, especially after any significant physical exersion.
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Bird Watcher
Optics Master Joined: August/30/2006 Status: Offline Points: 1523 |
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The thing about 'more need' to refocus seems to vary according to the manufacturers. I was looking at Steiner binoculars, which use individual focusing for each eyepiece, they claim that once you focus their bino's at 60 yds., that everything will be in focus to infinity.(unless of course you need to refocus closer than 60yds.)
I believe Roy Finn made reference to this very same thing in another forum, some time back. As for "behind the glass experience" we all have to BEGIN someday & NOW is as good a time as any. |
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lucznik
Optics Master Joined: November/27/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1436 |
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amen.
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What if the hokey pokey really is what it's all about?
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Exoman
Optics GrassHopper Joined: September/16/2006 Status: Offline Points: 37 |
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while magnifciation, weight, and objective size are very important, and after reading thru some responses I am compelled to take a step back to maybe a 10 x 50 or 10 x 56, the main thing I am interested in is who has cleaner glass. the leupold advertises multi coated lenses and some aluminum enhanced prisms, while the monarch has phase coating and roof prisms(roof prisms oddly not advertised on the 56mm models)
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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I have never looked at these two side by side, so I can't comment on how they compare. I would think that they are comparable. Olympic binos are also phase-coated in case you are wondering.
If you are trying to get the best glass for the money you should really look at some porro prism designs. Minos BD 10x44 porros are within $50 of Nikon Monarch 12x56 and are head and shoulders better optically. Monarchs weigh 42oz for 12x56, 38oz for 10x56 and 22oz for 10x42 Olympics weigh 25oz for 10x50 Minox porros weigh just over 24oz for a 10x44 model. ILya |
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Bird Watcher
Optics Master Joined: August/30/2006 Status: Offline Points: 1523 |
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The Fujinon 10x42CD has silver mirrored BaK-4 prisms/silver reflects 20% more light than aluminum.(in their product line) Phase coated, close focus 13', weight 31.9 ozs., eye relief 15mm, F.O.V. 367 ft./1000 yds., relative brightness 17.6,($500).
I don't know what you mean by roof prisms NOT advertised on the 56mm Monarch. The last time I read about them it said, "phase corrected roof prisms". (Also, you can tell from the photographs that they are a roof prism.) |
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Exoman
Optics GrassHopper Joined: September/16/2006 Status: Offline Points: 37 |
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yeah, Im retarded. i didnt figure out that differences between roof prism and porro prism were visually apparent by construction until koshkins last post. so, in a product line where porro prism and roof prism are offered and the glass itself has the same coatings etc between both styles, are they both going to have the same visual quality? does roof prism offer any image quality advantage that cant be made in porro? or is the only thing you are paying extra for is the roof prism design because its more expensive to make the binos as compact? |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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Mechanical and optical tolerances in a roof prism binocular are considerably tighter. It is easier to make a porro prism and a porro prism binocular of the same optics as a roof prism will offer a better view at a lower price.
ILya |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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Just a comment on prisms: where did you get this 20% number? Does not sound quite right. There is a little kink in Aluminum's reflectance curves, if memory serves me right, at around 800nm where it is ~12-13% less reflective than silver, but that's not a major deal. At about 520nm (green), the reflectance of silver and aluminum is the same. Above 520nm (reds) silver is more reflective and below 520nm (blues) aluminum is far more reflective. For more consistent reflectivity across wavelength, titanium oxide has been used along with other materials. All in all, for low light viewing I would be cautious with silver coatings. Their reflectivity drops off pretty sharply near the blue end of the spectrum while that of aluminum picks up a little there. Also, if any moisture gets into the binocular silver is likely to tarnish while aluminum is a fair bit more stable. Either way, though, the prisms are (or at least should be) positioned for total internal reflection (or as close to it as possible with porro prisms, harder with roofs). The reflective coatings should not play all that huge of a role except in compact roof prism binoculars where the evanescent wave can actually partially couple into the second prism if they are too close together. ILya |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13181 |
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On twilight factor: I am not sure which exact sales guy came up with that term, but it is a very misleading number to look at. For example, an 8x40 has a twilight factor of 17.89, while a 12x30 has a twilight factor of 18.97. Does that make 12x30 a better low light binocular? Twilight factor is only useful when comparing binoculars from the same line-up, with the same exit pupil and of abolutely top notch construction and optics. If you are trying to figure out which Leica Ultravid out of different Ultravids or which Fujinon Polaris out of different Polaris binos is best in lowlight, then twilight factor can be a useful number. Aside, from that, the best that I can tell, twilight factor was invented for a very specific purpose of selling optics to people without educating them about optics. For a low/mid priced binocular an 8x40 will usually be better in low light than a 10x50 simply because the various imperfections in glass and construction are more apparent in a 10x binocular and tough viewing conditions really make them stand out. ILya |
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Bird Watcher
Optics Master Joined: August/30/2006 Status: Offline Points: 1523 |
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Yes, it is best to only compare models within a given manufacturers product line. I have noticed that when you go to a different manufacturer that the relative brightness and/or twilight factor does differ.
www.zbirding.info Zeiss offers a good explanation of twilight factor & Relative Geometric Brightness. Go to their Birding & Nature heading and under Binoculars, click on any of their binocular models, then scroll down to Technical Data & click on Twilight Factor. The 20% for silver mirrored prisms comes from www.Fujinon.com. Would you be so kind as to explain what you mean about various imperfections being visible in the glass with 10x & above. I have owned 16x Nikon Actions, & I currently own Pentax 20x60 PCF WP II & also a 20x80 Giant Lightweight & I do not believe that I have ever observed any obvious "imperfections" in the glass of any of these binoculars. |
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