OpticsTalk by SWFA, Inc. Homepage SWFA     SampleList.com
Forum Home Forum Home > Firearms, Bows, and Ammunition > Firearms
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - AR10 ??
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials.

AR10 ??

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2018 at 15:01
I reserve the right to create my own words.
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
Peddler View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar

Joined: July/04/2012
Location: Oswego,NY
Status: Offline
Points: 13526
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/28/2018 at 16:31
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

I reserve the right to create my own words.



😂👍
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.
Back to Top
Lockjaw View Drop Down
Optics Journeyman
Optics Journeyman


Joined: May/17/2016
Location: Chelsea
Status: Offline
Points: 434
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lockjaw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2018 at 14:13
Well I did look into the 458 Socom as an option, and may well be for me. I guess my concern with it would be how the lower would hold up, and would I need to have a different buffer and buffer spring? 
CMMG has some new one, and its beefier than standard from what I saw. 

There are some pretty cool vids on youtube of guys shooting 500+grain subsonic socoms and killing pigs and deer. I am sure they have a worse trajectory than a 30-30. 

Whatever it is, I need to be able to reload it so I can shoot it. 


Back to Top
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4853
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2018 at 21:44
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

Or, look into a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. Other than barrel and mags, you can go all AR-15 parts.


...and bolt (bolt only, not carrier).

Dang, I was wondering why it would never fire or cycle. Big Smile

Good catch.
Reaction time is a factor...
Back to Top
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4853
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/29/2018 at 21:47
Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

I have and hunt with one I built. To get it light cost some bucks. You might either consider buying one of the lighter off-the-shelf 16" variations. Or, look into a 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. I went with the latter on an AR-15 platform build. With 130 gr Berger Hunter Classics it's good on antelope or deer out to 400+ yards and elk @ 200. Other than barrel and mags, you can go all AR-15 parts.

On a somewhat related note, if you have large hands consider the Ergo tactical deluxe grip. It really feels and controls much better for me.

Did you do Grendel or SPC? I looked at the Grendel option. 

Here is the thing. I have 308's already. I like the 6.5 creedmore. But don't want something that is 22 in barrel. I want it to be more compact. 

Mine's a 6.8 SPC. Either way would be good. One thing I dislike with .308 ARs is not having a forward assist. You (and hunting partners) will have to be comfortable with you carrying a chambered round...at least if you hunt mule deer or elk which seem to be able to hear a mouse pissing on cotton.
Reaction time is a factor...
Back to Top
HKtoTikka View Drop Down
Optics Apprentice
Optics Apprentice
Avatar

Joined: November/11/2015
Location: TX
Status: Offline
Points: 159
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HKtoTikka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 05:40
6.5 Grendel gives just about as good as the 308 at longer distances due to a better BC.  The idea that 308 is superior for this purpose is getting debunked.  At shorter distances the 308 has more energy which is natural given the difference in bullet mass.  But do you need all that mass?  Plenty of people are taking down elk no problem with Grendel.  That should about covers anyone's energy and hitting requirements.

There is a 556/6.5G/7.62 chart in here:

http://www.shootingtimes.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/11/files/6-5mm-grendel-the-round-the-military-ought-to-have/6-5mm-grendel_010.jpg


This is a 6.5G vs 6.8 SPC discussion
http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?7716-Ballistics-charts&highlight=energy+chart


6.5G will give you more commonality of parts on the AR-15 chassis.


Ammo is scarcer, but getting better.  There are a ton of bullets out there with fantastic BC.  If you live near a Sportsmans Warehouse, there is a new line of Hornady called American Gunner they carry at a great price to give you brass for reloading.

If you want some interesting numbers, read the following thread.  There are some ballistic charts with other calibers.

http://www.65grendel.com/forum/showthread.php?15660-Why-I-Chose-to-Hunt-with-the-6-5-Grendel&highlight=energy+chart


I was thinking of slapping together a long distance 223 but instead decided to go Grendel after it was suggested here.  After researching for a while what I was finding is you get more fps, accuracy, energy and less drop and drift than the 223 and a log of other calibers.  You can get just as much fps and less drop and drift than a 308 and enough energy that it just doesnt matter. 

If the primary purpose is to kill things from 0-400 get the Grendel.  

And I already have an AR-10 TC.  No, I haven't assembled the Grendel yet, I'll update that thread when i do.






Edited by HKtoTikka - January/30/2018 at 06:09
Back to Top
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 11814
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 10:17
IMO the logic that the grendel is just as good for big game as a .308 falls apart.  The diff between the 556 and the grendel is nearly the same as the grendel to the .308.  In that logic the 556 is fine for elk to as it will kill one, so why not. 

I have killed my share of elk.  I have killed three with a .243.  two with a .308, two with a 7 mag and my dad one with my 300 wsm.   Exit wounds on the mags are softball sized in the rib cage.  The .308 was baseball sized and the .243 in my kills did not exit.  The first elk I killed was with a .243.  I hit him 7 times before he went down.  5 of them were in the rib shoulder area, one in the gut.  The only reason he went down is because I broke both of his shoulders, then ran up on him and shot him in the head.  He was moving I was near 300 yards away and shooting off hand, so getting a perfect shot was not happening.  

Sure the smaller calibers will kill them, but what if you hit a shoulder?  My dad shot an elk once with his .243.  He new he was undergunned so when he shot he fired two shots rapidly (semi auto).  The first one hit the shoulder bone and stopped, the second one was right behind the should and hit the vitals.  He was in heavy timber, so if he would have shot once he may not have got him.  Then would have had to track him and cause the animal unneeded pain. 

Smaller lighter bullets like a grendel and .243 will indeed kill an elk, but a larger heavier bullets do it better.  I have seen the differences personally and it is real.  All that said, I will likely hunt elk at some point with my 6.5 creedmoor, but I will be more picky about my shot placement vs my 7mag or 300 wsm. 
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."
Back to Top
koshkin View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
Dark Lord of Optics

Joined: June/15/2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 13181
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 11:31
Originally posted by Lockjaw Lockjaw wrote:

Well I did look into the 458 Socom as an option, and may well be for me. I guess my concern with it would be how the lower would hold up, and would I need to have a different buffer and buffer spring? 
CMMG has some new one, and its beefier than standard from what I saw. 

There are some pretty cool vids on youtube of guys shooting 500+grain subsonic socoms and killing pigs and deer. I am sure they have a worse trajectory than a 30-30. 

Whatever it is, I need to be able to reload it so I can shoot it. 



One of my ARs is chambered for 458 SOCOM.  It is all sorts of fun and, I suspect, is not lacking lethality within its envelope.

I plan to put together a suppressed SOCOM for shooting subsonic 500gr bullets.  I do not really have a need for one, but I think this is the one configuration Ted does not have, so I want it.

ILya
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 13:22
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

I do not really have a need for one, but I think this is the one configuration Ted does not have, so I want it.


I don't have a Bugatti Veyron.

Just saying...
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 14:04
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

IMO the logic that the grendel is just as good for big game as a .308 falls apart.  The diff between the 556 and the grendel is nearly the same as the grendel to the .308.  In that logic the 556 is fine for elk to as it will kill one, so why not. 

I have killed my share of elk.  I have killed three with a .243.  two with a .308, two with a 7 mag and my dad one with my 300 wsm.   Exit wounds on the mags are softball sized in the rib cage.  The .308 was baseball sized and the .243 in my kills did not exit.  The first elk I killed was with a .243.  I hit him 7 times before he went down.  5 of them were in the rib shoulder area, one in the gut.  The only reason he went down is because I broke both of his shoulders, then ran up on him and shot him in the head.  He was moving I was near 300 yards away and shooting off hand, so getting a perfect shot was not happening.  

Sure the smaller calibers will kill them, but what if you hit a shoulder?  My dad shot an elk once with his .243.  He new he was undergunned so when he shot he fired two shots rapidly (semi auto).  The first one hit the shoulder bone and stopped, the second one was right behind the should and hit the vitals.  He was in heavy timber, so if he would have shot once he may not have got him.  Then would have had to track him and cause the animal unneeded pain. 

Smaller lighter bullets like a grendel and .243 will indeed kill an elk, but a larger heavier bullets do it better.  I have seen the differences personally and it is real.  All that said, I will likely hunt elk at some point with my 6.5 creedmoor, but I will be more picky about my shot placement vs my 7mag or 300 wsm. 

The debate is not that the Grendel is just as good for big game animals as a .308 in all circumstances. The argument centers around 2 things: long range trajectory for target shooting, where the Grendel hangs with the .308, and effectiveness on game at short range up to maybe 300 yards, typical for how you'd use an AR in the first place. This is of course a comparison involving some tradeoffs, primarily a lighter, handier rifle in exchange for a slightly smaller wound channel. I very much disagree that the difference between a Grendel and .308 is remotely the same as between the Grendel and the 5.56. This due to bullets available and penetration potential for bullets typically used within AR cartridge length constraints. The sectional density and construction, as well as penetration of 120 - 140 gr 6.5 bullets compares very favorably to 150 - 165 gr bullets in .30 caliber, as long as you have reasonably high enough velocity to cause them to expand properly, which you would at short range. A 125ish gr 6.5 bullet will behave pretty much the same as a 150 gr .30 cal bullet of similar construction in terms of penetration and tissue damage. What the latter gains in diameter and mass, the former gains in sectional density, so they produce similar wound channels. On the other hand, .22 cal is lacking in bullets truly suitable for big game. At around 300 yards and under where velocities are still high enough to create a good wound channel, there isn't any animal that walks that will know the difference between a .308 and a 6.5 anything. If the critter is too large and tough for a Grendel at that distance, it's likewise too large and tough for a .308 with 165s as well. Personally, neither would be close to my first choice for elk sized game, but if they were all I had, I wouldn't stay home. For that matter, I'd never choose an AR for elk hunting anyway, and what a given AR is chambered in is way down on the list of reasons why. 

So with all things considered, given the specific limitations on shot distance and the size of game you'd typically hunt with an AR to begin with, the question then becomes why carry around 2-3 lbs extra weight and a less handy gun if you don't have to?
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 11814
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 15:17
For reference I was specifically replying to this comment
Quote Plenty of people are taking down elk no problem with Grendel.
  Also the energy numbers of a 223 vs 6.5 vs 308 are spread pretty even. 

I know your preferences for the 7mm and 6.5 calibers Ted, and for the most part I agree with you. I love the 6.5 caliber, it is easily my fave.   But 123 grain grendel going maybe 2500 fps vs a 180 grain (we are talking elk here none of this 150 grain crap Wink) .308 going 2600 are not going to hit the elk the same.  That's nearly a 3rd more mass hitting him.  If you get a perfect shot then sure they will both penetrate to the vitals.  But that is not that often.  I have been hunting elk for 20+ years and not very often do you get a shot of an elk standing still.  Elk are almost always on the move, and often quickly on the move.  So that perfect vital shot does not happen very often.  You often get the shoulder or have to take a quartering shot and need lots of penetration.  Elk are big powerful animals they are not like a deer.  The elk I have killed have all been spike bulls too, so little boys compared to a full grown cow or big bull.  Big bulls are crazy big.  I have been within 20 to 30 yards yards of two big bulls fighting and they are huge.  A grendel just isn't enough gun.  And I agree a .308 is not optimal for one of them either, but its a lot better than a 6.5 grendel. 

Now it we get to 140+ grain bullets going 2600+ that would be better indeed.  But .30+ caliber (preferably magnums) are much better choices for those big boys.   FOr me I would absolutely carry the 2 extra lbs to hunt elk with the .308 vs a grendel.  No doubt about it. 

And, as you said for target shooting I would also pick the 6.5.  
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 17:52
I agree with most of what you said. However, keep in mind a couple things here...
The comparison centers around these chamberings in an AR platform. Therefore, in .308, that means 2.8” max OAL and typically a short barrel. That pretty much negates the advantages of using 180s in .308. If we’re talking about what’s optimal for elk, especially if humping it in the steep high country they call home, an AR of any persuasion is a suboptimal tool from a weight:performance standpoint.

Secondly, “energy” is probably the most overrated metric as a measure of lethality. It over emphasizes velocity, it doesn’t take into account bullet construction, and it is a poor predictor of tissue damage. It’s amazing how much less “energy” is required the closer you get to vital organs and shoulders holding critters upright. Other than providing impressive sounding ft/lb numbers on paper, it has little value.
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 11814
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 20:13
Lots of people carry around 11 and 12 lb rifles hunting. I say if you can’t, turn over that man card. Haha
Even us high land elk hunters do that often. Mountain rifles are more of a modern option. My 7mag BAR with scope fully loaded weights around 11.5lbs. I do prefer a light rifle, but have no issues hunting with and 11+ lb one. My tikka with suppressor weights near 11.5 as well. I hiked around for 3 days near 8 hours each this deer season with that tikka. I was just fine.

Also my reference to energy was simply staing the diff between 223, gendel and .308 are about equal spread. Nothing about shooting game specfically.

My 19” .308 will shoot 175s 2650. Even if you only get 2500 that 180 will have a big penetration advantage over a 123.
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."
Back to Top
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9318
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 20:35
I love my 16” 308 AR, but pull out the 300WM when I want to anchor it.
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 21:12
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Lots of people carry around 11 and 12 lb rifles hunting. I say if you can’t, turn over that man card. Haha

Lots of people voted for Obama too.Wink

It's not an issue of "can't," it's an issue of "don't want to," especially when you consider all the other gear you typically haul around with you. Since I have more than 1 or 2 rifles to choose from, I'm not forced to make such concessions.Big Grin
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
RifleDude View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar
EVIL OPPRESSOR

Joined: October/13/2006
Location: Texas
Status: Offline
Points: 16337
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 21:18
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

 Even if you only get 2500 that 180 will have a big penetration advantage over a 123.

Actually, given similarly constructed bullets, you'd be surprised how little penetration difference there would be. The 180 will slightly out-penetrate the 123. What the 180 gains in momentum from mass, it loses in larger frontal area creating more drag. Heavy for caliber bullets get the best penetration. A 123 is moderately heavy for 6.5mm dia. Keep in mind that a 125 gr. 6.5mm and a 170 gr. .30 have exactly the same SD, so will penetrate to the same degree given equal construction.
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
Back to Top
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 11814
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 21:53
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Keep in mind that a 125 gr. 6.5mm and a 170 gr. .30 have exactly the same SD, so will penetrate to the same degree given equal construction.


You had to go and bring actual terminal ballistics is into this. Fair enough, I shall bow out oh wise one as i can’t argue with that.
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."
Back to Top
supertool73 View Drop Down
Optics God
Optics God
Avatar
Superstool

Joined: January/03/2008
Status: Offline
Points: 11814
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2018 at 22:00
But my 30cal will create a larger permanat would channel. Thats has to count for something.
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own."
Back to Top
Rancid Coolaid View Drop Down
MODERATOR
MODERATOR
Avatar

Joined: January/19/2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 9318
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2018 at 06:24
I am not a ballistics expert, I am a decent shot and a fairly good hunter, so there is a bit of voodoo in my calculations. And that voodoo tends toward larger diameter bullets to make big holes and grenade bones.
I will own a Grendel soon, if only because you convinced me I need to shelve the 18” 223 mid-range gun for a little more power, that is how my inclinations tend: replace less powerful gun with more powerful gun.

To that end, the AR10 is going nowhere, but if anyone needs a DD 18” AR15 upper, I have one about to go into storage.
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn.
Equality is something you whine about not being given.
Back to Top
jonoMT View Drop Down
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Optics Master Extraordinaire
Avatar

Joined: November/13/2008
Location: Montana
Status: Offline
Points: 4853
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2018 at 14:26
I think out of nine elk I've shot, including a large bull, with a .308 I only had one cow that took just a single shot to down. Another really gave me some trouble when I used the wrong bullet (a 175-gr FMJ) from accidentally picking up the wrong box of handloads to bring along. I had to track her for half a mile and then watch her still jump a fence after the second round penetrated right behind the shoulder. That left me deboning an elk while trespassing. All I can say to that, is if I'd gotten in trouble at least I didn't waste a game animal. I found that second round almost entirely intact right inside the opposite shoulder.

I've had much better results with Berger 165-gr Classic Hunters loaded to 2.8 OAL. But still those last three elk each took a second shot. In each case the initial shot was over 200 yards. I might hunt elk with the 6.8 SPC, but won't take a shot over 200. Now that I have the 8.5 lb fully loaded/scoped .308 AR why would I?

I don't mind some extra weight, but I do hate excessive barrel length. Suppressed, that rifle will end up being 21.5" on the front end and that's just about where my Tikka is. Any longer and you start hitting noisy twigs or can't get the rifle up as fast.
Reaction time is a factor...
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.01
Copyright ©2001-2018 Web Wiz Ltd.

This page was generated in 0.174 seconds.