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FBI returning to 9mm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sgt. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2014 at 08:52

Originally posted by BeltFed BeltFed wrote:

Just looking at the results from Marshall's study, with modern projectiles the 45, 40, and 357Sig still out perform the 9mm, but not by much. When you look at the performance of the 45, 40, and 9mm in FMJ, the 9mm is the clear winner. I bring this up because sometimes expanding bullets don't expand, especially after passing through clothing, drywall, glass, and other materials.
The fact is, there are to many variables in a gun fight to say that this caliber is better than that caliber. I mean if you look at Ted's last link to a study, you could come to the conclusion that a 32ACP is the best man stopper. The day that my Dept. issues me a 32ACP is the day I retire, yet that's what the German police carried until the end of WWII. Go figure.
I've carried a lot of different calibers on and off duty, and I violated my Department's rules when it came to the 38spl. and I probably didn't need to. From everything I have witnessed and learned the determination of an assailant and where they are hit has more to do with stopping power than how big or how fast the bullet was. That said, I want the most powerful round I can handle and have lots of those rounds in my pistol, because I might run into a really bad Mo Fo, and he might have friends that want to hurt me, and I'm gonna wanna hurt them right back first.


There ya go........... the variables. That is where I get frustrated with budget dictating what law and military carry. It is one thing to evaluate if a particular rd is effective in unobstructed one shot stopping power. But when you add real world variables such as what law and the military face. Bullet wt. has to come into play. If there is need of shooting thru glass, a door, a wall or any obstruction to stop a assailant higher velocity and bullet wt are a must. A little pet peeve I have with the 32 the Germans carried is because they had limited resources and because most of their use of them was for head shots on non-compliant citizens/prisoners.

You mentioned the 38spl. It has proven its self over the yrs. But like any cal mentioned, you will find cases of poor results.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2014 at 08:58
Here is an interesting study on "knockdown power"… can't say I agree with everything he says, I have seen first hand the results of some "effects" on pig bodies, but I do agree with most of what he says and have stated a number of times that pushing lighter bullets to higher velocities can be a real plus.  Since blood loss is a key contributor to "stopping", wound dynamics ARE important.  However, the consistent reference to handguns only being useful if you don't plan on being in a gunfight, I think is both humorous and outstanding…  I also agree greatly with the concept of triple taps…(and therefore want as much available ammo in hand as I can get… more opportunities to shoot).  

The results I showed on 9mm vs 45 ACP were based upon max velocities for a 90 grain bullet.  I don't much care for "ballistic gel" results, but the "wound channel" of the 90gr 45 ACP in ballistic gel is huge…



For reloaders, this should be excellent information.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2014 at 09:06
I had a IMI Timberwolf .357 Mag. pump rifle Which I shot three deer with. All three were taken using Hornady Leverrevolution 140 gr. ammo. All were shot within 50 yards and were one shot kills. None went over 30-40 yards.





Edited by Peddler - December/17/2014 at 12:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2014 at 09:49
Originally posted by osprey osprey wrote:

I once heard an instuctor at a range say shooting 9mm is like shooting nerf balls at someone, that was several years back though.

Avoid that instructor, at all costs!

On the topic, or possibly off it: taking thousands of incidents, with literally thousands of variables per incident, and drawing conclusions - that seems to my scientific mind a great way to arrive at any conclusion one wishes.

I have long been a student of the 2 schools of thought: big bullet moving slower vs smaller bullet moving faster.  Energy for the equation can be derived from mass and velocity (and you square the V), but, as said many times before, it isn't all about energy.

Knowing what I know, having seen what I have seen: when it matters, I carry a 45 with several extra mags.  It isn't about data to me, it is about confidence - both in my gear and in my abilities.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2014 at 12:21
We gun guys are a funny lot. We tend to obsess over minute "advantages" on paper that seldom ever translate to actual advantages in the field. On the one hand we frequently draw conclusions about caliber effectiveness based on a very small sample size. Then on the other hand, we resist greater evidence contradicting our long held beliefs.

As written in the first link, nobody does more ballistic testing of defensive handgun cartridges than the FBI. The .40 S&W cartridge came into being in the first place due to the FBI's request for a cartridge that duplicated reduced pressure 10mm loads due to their dissatisfaction with 9mm following an infamous 1986 Miami shootout. So, their decision to return to 9mm was not made without very good justification for doing so.

I've posted links representing hundreds of shootings involving actual real world police engagement of human targets. Ballistic gel is a good test medium, but nothing trumps actual results in actual fire fights. How many shoots is required before data becomes valid? How else can we draw valid conclusions besides looking at the results of actual shootouts against actual humans? Regardless of what we wish were true, the fact still remains that the more powerful pistol cartridges have not demonstrated a higher first shot stop %, a lower shot count to incapacitate a perp, nor greater lethality than the 9mm.

That being the case, I think it's reasonable to question the logic of accepting lower mag capacity and less control in exchange for no real world benefits.

Confidence in your chosen weapon is no small factor; I get that. But, these studies are telling us that better numbers on paper don't extrapolate to advantages in actual self defense scenarios.
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2014 at 12:25
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Bullet selection and shot placement trumps everything else by far.


This.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2014 at 12:31
This is another great thread on OT!
A few times, I've talked to local PD or OHP officers and asked what they were carrying and why. It's personal preference for them and they carry it all, from 9mm- .45acp and once, an OHP trooper sparked my investigation into the excellent .357 Sig. The most salient answer I ever got was from an officer packing a 9mm who said; "I like the idea of having over 60 rds. on my belt".

My interest in .45s is almost purely for paper punching and I've long recognized that pistol calibers are at the low end of fire power and there isn't a wide gap between any of them. There's that old Alaskan joke about hunting brown bears with a .44 Magnum- make sure the front sight is filed off...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2014 at 12:40
Ted,   I appreciate the post, and the points.  I am not discounting the studies, just weighting them.

In the end, you gotta dance with who brung ya!

And I am not a fan of "field of fire" handguns, stray rounds can have very high costs.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2014 at 12:57
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

We gun guys are a funny lot. We tend to obsess over minute "advantages" on paper that seldom ever translate to actual advantages in the field. On the one hand we frequently draw conclusions about caliber effectiveness based on a very small sample size. Then on the other hand, we resist greater evidence contradicting our long held beliefs.

As written in the first link, nobody does more ballistic testing of defensive handgun cartridges than the FBI. The .40 S&W cartridge came into being in the first place due to the FBI's request for a cartridge that duplicated reduced pressure 10mm loads due to their dissatisfaction with 9mm following an infamous 1986 Miami shootout. So, their decision to return to 9mm was not made without very good justification for doing so.

I've posted links representing hundreds of shootings involving actual real world police engagement of human targets. Ballistic gel is a good test medium, but nothing trumps actual results in actual fire fights. How many shoots is required before data becomes valid? How else can we draw valid conclusions besides looking at the results of actual shootouts against actual humans? Regardless of what we wish were true, the fact still remains that the more powerful pistol cartridges have not demonstrated a higher first shot stop %, a lower shot count to incapacitate a perp, nor greater lethality than the 9mm.

That being the case, I think it's reasonable to question the logic of accepting lower mag capacity and less control in exchange for no real world benefits.

Confidence in your chosen weapon is no small factor; I get that. But, these studies are telling us that better numbers on paper don't extrapolate to advantages in actual self defense scenarios.

I generally agree with you, but I think confidence in your gun and ammo translates into better performance to a significant degree.

I no longer own a 45ACP handgun and my primary handgun is a 8 shot 357Mag/38Sp revolver that very seldom sees anything but +P 38Special rounds.  On rare occasions when I can carry (California is funny that way), I have a small J-frame revolver that shoots those same +P 38Special rounds.

I can't reload very fast with revolvers, so my round count is limited.  However, I have reasonable confidence in my abilities and I do not feel undergunned with the revolvers.  Also, I can't get my wife to practice, so a revolver is easier for her to operate: pick it up and pull the trigger.  I do not think she would be able to operate the slide of a semi-auto under stress.

My primary semi-auto is a Glock 31 chambered for 357 Sig.  I also have a 9mm barrel for it and a 22LR conversion kit.

That is the very first handgun I ever bought quite a few years ago and between the three chamberings I suspect I pulled the trigger on that thing well in excess of 50,000 times in the 15 or so years since I bought it.

Between the revolvers and the Glock, I have supreme confidence in my ability to place a shot where it needs to go.

I bought a 357Sig because it seemed like a good idea at the time.   If I had to do it all over again, I would go with a 9mm simply because of the ammo availability.  With California 10 round mag limit, round count is not a factor for me.

From a mechanical standpoint, I am fairly convinced that the bottlenecked 357Sig has got to be more reliable in semi-autos than straight wall cartridges.  That is the primary reason I keep it.  Mine has never malfunctioned with 357Sig. Ever.  Not a single malfunction in god knows how many attempts.  I tried to figure out how long I can shoot it without cleaning before it malfunctions.  I gave up.  The gun was leaking grime all over the place and I could not get it to stop working.  it was so filthy it actually bothered me.

Another nice thing about 357Sig is that it shoots a bit flatter than 9mm, so when I practice it is more forgiving of longer range targets.

That confidence is a big deal.

With 357Sig, I endure a bit more recoil than with 9mm, so I am sure there is a penalty in the speed of the recovery.  There is no penalty in magazine capacity in my case.

Am I going to divest from my 357Sign? Not a chance.

Would I stick with 9mm if I got to start over? Absolutely.

ILya




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2014 at 13:13
Training trumps caliber....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2014 at 17:41
Originally posted by koshkin koshkin wrote:

From a mechanical standpoint, I am fairly convinced that the bottlenecked 357Sig has got to be more reliable in semi-autos than straight wall cartridges. 

Another nice thing about 357Sig is that it shoots a bit flatter than 9mm, so when I practice it is more forgiving of longer range targets.

That confidence is a big deal.

With 357Sig, I endure a bit more recoil than with 9mm, so I am sure there is a penalty in the speed of the recovery.  There is no penalty in magazine capacity in my case.



Those are excellent points, and I agree that bottleneck ctgs should feed more reliably, all else being equal.
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/17/2014 at 20:03
F' it I'm just going to start carrying My Ithaca double under my trenchcoat!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2014 at 12:55
At least you will have something on underneath it then.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/18/2014 at 13:47
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeltFed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2014 at 06:22
Getting back on topic, and off of Peddler's hobby. I happen to think of a conversation I had with the Ky. State Police head armorer and firearms instructor 14 years ago. At the time they were using the S&W 1076, a 10mm Auto. I asked him how they liked the 1076 and the 10mm since the FBI was having trouble with their 1076s. He said they loved their 1076s and that the FBI had their own internal design that was causing their reliability problems. He also said that they loved the 10mm Auto, because they only needed one shot and it left a 10mm hole where it went in and a big hole where it went out of the suspect. I also happen to know that the FBI used a reduced 10mm load (that led to the 40S&W) and KSP used full power loads. Of all the shootings involving the KSP and their 10mm one shot stops were common.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2014 at 18:16
The ballistics gel photos in this thread made me wonder what a .45acp high velocity/lighter bullet +P type impact might look like, so I found one... and finally figured out what Dan's been talking about at the same time. I was really looking for a 185 Gr load, but this will do...

RBCD lists this cartridge as standard pressure, not +P.
RBCD Performance Plus 45 ACP 90 gr. TFSP 2036 fps, 828 ft lbs
Shot at 30' into 8"x8"x16" 10% Calibrated Gelatin through 4 sheets of ballistic nylon.
Entrance through right end, no exit!








 Their catalog also lists this interesting little rd:
45 ACP TPD 80 gr. TPD 2375 fps / 1002 flbs
TPD=Tactical Personal Defense (limited range)
TFSP= Total Fragmenting Soft Point

http://www.rbcd.net/Performance/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December/19/2014 at 18:23
Yes and if you do the ballistics calculations and take a SD of 1.5, you end up with a lower end of about 800fps and upper end of about 854.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bowana Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2015 at 11:32
Corbon makes 357 sig that travels around 1420 with a 124 gr bullet........prob around 520 or so foot pounds of energy. The 185 gr +P+ around 1020FPS.....so mid to high 500 foot pounds of energy. The 10MM with 180 grain bullet loaded by Grizzly is blistering along at 1300 Feet per second. So over 600 Foot pounds of energy. These stats are all fine and dandy. But, you got to carry these boat anchors all day long. Because your standard concealed carry threats are low. The 9mm and 380 auto are more than adequate for thier intended use. I can carry a Kimber Solo all day and forget its there. The little Glock single stacks work well also. Still carry a locked n cocked 1911 (Smith PD 1911) in my truck. Being an ex MP I'm a little partial to the "OL Man". Home defense is always going to be a rifle. Springfield SOCOM is one of my choices followed by a tricked out Ruger Mini 30. 
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