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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 13182 |
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Mwyates, I've played with the Lone Wolf knife you are talking about. The edge holding that you are noting is a result of blade geometry more than the steel. If I recall correctly it is a very thin blade with an incredibly aggressive bevel. That makes the edge, if not abused, feel sharp for a long time. By the same token, you give up some toughness and durability with the use of such a thin edge.
For the same edge profile, I would take ZDP-189 over LV-03 any day. D2, even when done by Bob Dozier, does not take all that great of an edge. It is serviceable though and it does hold it for a long time and is tougher than any stainless I've seen yet. ILya |
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Anthony
Optics Apprentice Joined: June/01/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 223 |
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These are my 3 favorite knives...
The one on the left is was given to me from someone that was in the army that didn't want it when he got home, and heard that I liked knives. the middle one is a gerber titanium blade (it feels like it is weightless) and it is the only knife that has survived being carried by a rather abusive owner for over two years, breaking the world record of 6 months with the most rugged folding knife I could find.
Now for the right knife. I was on they way back from a road trip and stopped at a shack on the side of the road that was actually some sort of gift shop. and picked that one up for 40 bucks, (it was pretty nasty, in that there was "stuff" all over it that make it look crappy, so i buffed it out when I got home and put in the gunsafe. |
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Trinidad
Optics Master Joined: May/04/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1555 |
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Hello Koshkin
I did a little research to see what the knife pro's are saying and they all agree, the majority of them like Spyderco and Benchmade only a few like Cold Steel but only the higher end models. The few knife pro's that liked Cold Steel did like the ti-lite and the hatamoto(the two I own) but they said that the steel is outdated and mentioned the ZDP-189 as bieng top as far as steel goes.
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 13182 |
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Limited edition Buck knives are well made. Kershaw has some interesting models as well and their quality control has been quite good in the last couple of years. Gerber has diminished since it was purchased by Fiskars. Spyderco and Benchmade have been very good for a long time and both offer a range of models at different price points. There are new companies that have excellent products as well: Mcusta is new, Fallkniven is very good, Lone Wolf and others. If you want a higher end piece look at William Henry folders. They are excellent.
ILya |
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Trinidad
Optics Master Joined: May/04/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1555 |
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Wow! William Henry folders have great features. I wish I would have known about these before spending $200 on the hatamoto. Thanks for the info, you are always a help Koshkin. |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 13182 |
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William Henry knives tend to be more along the lines of a gentleman's folder, but they are easily among the best fit, finished and designed knives anywhere and at any price. I used to have custom folders from a number of well known makers like Darrel Ralph, et al. I sold all my custom folders (I still have some custom fixed blade knives) because various good quality production knives are built as well and cost less.
Oh, if you are willing to spend a fari amount of money you can also look a Chris Reeve knives. They probably started the whole high-end folder craze of the last decade or so. ILya |
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Trinidad
Optics Master Joined: May/04/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1555 |
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I have been spending alot of money lately, what I am going to do is keep my folders and then look at something along the lines of the William Henry knives in the future when the upgrade becomes needed. It has been fun looking at these high end folders I did not know about. Thanx. |
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mwyates
Optics Master Joined: June/15/2004 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 1196 |
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Ilya,
I've used my City Knife to lay a linoleum floor. trim 12 gauge electrical wire for 40 outlets, trim laminate flooring and several other tasks that are really hard on an edge. It won't still shave, but it still works pretty well and is probably sharper than the average out of the box Case.
As far as the Dozier knives go, D2 is a farily soft tool steel, but his magic is in a heat treat that takes it to a Rockwell hardness of 60-61. It's the only knife I've ever seen that will skin and process 3 deer without sharpening (I've done this with it three years in a row) and still be fairly easy to resharpen. I had an old Buck folder that held it's edge really well, but when it needed sharpening, it was a 4 hour job. The Dozier is ready to go again in 10 minutes.
As far as William Henry goes, they are at or near the top of the heap in mass produced knives. I had a Black and Tan Spearpoint for a while. It was just so nice I hated to use it, so I sold it.
Some other nice folders that I haven't seen mentioned yet are by CRKT. They reproduce some of the custom builders knives that are really nice. |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 13182 |
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The things you are talking about are perfect for a fairly hard thinly ground blade and the continued real world performance is a testament to aggresive bevel and thin blade. IMO, most production knives today have edges with bevels that are too obtuse.
Anyhow City Knife is very nice design, but I have a thing against slipjoints so I did not buy it. D2 is not a soft steel as far as knife steels go. Dozier's magic is indeed in the heat treat, but it has nothing to do with hardness. Most people who use D2 harden it to 60-62Rc range. D2 takes a toothy edge that can keep slicing forever. The core of ZDP-189 is typically at ~64Rc, if memory serves me right, and it can take a pretty scary edge. ILya |
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mwyates
Optics Master Joined: June/15/2004 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 1196 |
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From what I can find about ZDP-189, it's treated to a hardness of 66-67Rc. That's getting to the point that it would be very hard to sharpen. I think Wm. Henry uses it in laminated blades, with Damascus or softer stainless on the outside. It should be perfect for that. Do you know of anybody else using it? I like Wm. Henry, but I think you can get a lot more knife for the same money.
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 13182 |
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Spyderco is also beginning to use it in some models (special edition for now). It is actually pretty easy to sharpen. Hardness is not really an indication of ease of sharpening. For example, CPM-S90V hardened to 59RC is far harder to sharpen than M2 hardened to 64Rc.
There are many parameters that effect edge holding and ease of sharpening. A gentleman by the name of Cliff Stamp did a lot of empirical studies on this. While I do not always agree with him (he uses knives differently from the way I do), but his work is very informative. http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/reviews.html ILya |
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mwyates
Optics Master Joined: June/15/2004 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 1196 |
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Ilya,
That's an interesting site. I wish all I had to do was take knives out, see how they cut different stuff, build some fires.....
I see on the AG Russell steel guide that ZDP-189 is 20% chrome and 3% carbon. That's really unusual. Hitachi must be working some magic or that wouldn't work. I noticed that none of the other components are listed.
I don't care what kind of steel it is, some things, like bone, dull a knife in a hurry. Some, like my Doziers, handle it better than others. Before going to Dozier I used various Gerber, Boker (good if you stay away from the Argentina-made models), different CRKT, one really beautiful D'Holder, one Randall, a Russell, and some others.
I've got a couple of Bark River models made of A2 that are really good buys |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 13182 |
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The center core of ZDP-189 is a powder steel so they can get a lot of allying elements in there. Hitachi is not disclosing the exact mix in the steel since it is proprietory.
Bone can dul a knife in the hurry, but different steels react to different materials in unique ways. I've tried just about every steel available from a number of makers (in addition to production knives): Darrel Ralph, Tom Mayo, Murray Carter, Bob Dozier, Chris Reeve, John Greco, etc. Heat treat makes a huge difference, but different steels work better for different applications. I mostly use my folders for cutting paper, cardboard, etc. Various powder steels with high carbide content work well for this. The same steels are not good for chopping bone. For that a different steel is best. A2 probably takes the best edge of any steel I've ever used.and Bark River has one of the best heat treats for A2. ILya |
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Trinidad
Optics Master Joined: May/04/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1555 |
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Hello Koshkin
My fixed blade Tanto's have ASSAB K-120C high carbon swedish powder folded steel 60rc edge 40rc spine. Is this pretty good steel., it cuts great and is extremely sharp but I do not know how it compares. |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 13182 |
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I am not familiar with that steel.
One thing though: why would they need to fold powder steel? Also, I thought that powder steels were for the most part air hardening steels. If so, how did they make it differentially tempered? ILya |
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Trinidad
Optics Master Joined: May/04/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1555 |
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They claim with Clay the edge is a different color more chalky the rest looks like damascus. |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 13182 |
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There is not much information available on this steel. The consensus seems to be that it is either 1095 or 1084 plain carbon steel which is pretty good stuff. It is tough and takes good edge, but rusts fairly easily like most simple carbon steels. I am not sure why it would look like damascus though.
ILya |
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Trinidad
Optics Master Joined: May/04/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1555 |
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I bought these because they were said to be pretty popular with martial artists for cutting bamboo and (Gyozo?) and they looked very cool. They are claimed to have 3000 folds and are made by Paul Chen. |
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koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Online Points: 13182 |
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They do look cool. Paul Chen is generally famous for decorative stuff, although these seem to be well made and of good materials.
What is your use for the knife? is this a wall hanger? or do you plan to use it for anything? what are the actual pieces you own? 3000 folds sounds like BS, to be hoenst, but I do not see how that makes any difference. ILya |
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Trinidad
Optics Master Joined: May/04/2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1555 |
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I have the orchid that I use and carry some times it is small, I have the Tiger that looks mean and I will use if the situaton is needed I also have the Tactical that is in my field bag for the outdoors but this one is not folded, this one gets the most use. |
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