Visit the SWFA.com site to check out our current specials. |
Top tier AR's |
Post Reply | Page 123> |
Author | ||
mil169
Optics Journeyman Joined: February/28/2012 Location: Nebraska Status: Offline Points: 378 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
Posted: July/08/2014 at 08:07 |
|
I know this has been discussed before other places, but in light of my recent AR dabbling I thought I would ask. With out getting to opionated, what makes a BCM, DD, or Novenske so much better than a RRA or other mid-grade AR platform? How does the rifle I just assembled, stack up? All of the components are from name brand, reputable manufacture's, so what would you do differant to compare it to a BCM or other high end rifle.
Here are the components: Seekins forged upper Rainier 18" SPR contour barrel, with rifle length gas system YHM low profile gas block WOA rifle length gas tube Spikes tactical full auto BCG 15" MI Quad Rail YHM 5M1 compensator BMC Mod4 charging handle Seekins forged lower CMMG lpk Magpul CTR stock kit with carbine buffer |
||
stork23raz
Optics Journeyman Joined: September/10/2009 Location: Tennessee Status: Offline Points: 676 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Materials, Precision, Quality, Quality Control.
|
||
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 10:28 |
||
Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The average user (who puts maybe 1000 rounds through an AR in his ownership of it) will never see a difference. In contrast, those who shoot with regularity and volume, a few thought to tens of thousands of a rounds a year, see a big, big divide between "decent" and "great."
For the vast majority, who own rather than shoot, "decent" is all you need. After thousands of rounds, failure rates go up dramatically on the decent stuff, and the good keeps plugging along.
|
||
Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
||
supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I bought a BCM upper last year. It had a fixed front sight/gas block on it and I wanted a low profile gas block on it. I have done this to many standard ARs and never had an issue. But pounding out the pins on that FS/gas block was insanely hard. I could not believe how tight those suckers were in there.
I think it is all the little things like that that will make certain rifles last longer and be more reliable. I dare bet every single part of the BCM is similar in attention to detail in putting them together as with mounting that gas block. There are half a dozen or so machine shops that make a majority of the forged AR parts. They sell these parts to OEMs. So if you buy an RRA, or a Stag or S&W, it is possible it is build from the exact same parts and even from the same lot of parts that any of the three were made from. It is always funny when someone dogs say Bushmaster and then brags about their LAR Grizzly AR when infact LAR makes Bushmaster parts. Or a CMT vs an RRA, when CMT makes parts for RRA. But then you have the higher end stuff like Colt, BCM, and the billet machined parts and they are made to very specific specifications often time in house by the OEM. I have no way of knowing this, but I had read that forged parts are actually more durable than the billet ARs uppers and lowers. I bet Rifledude could give us the truth on that being in the industry he is in. Rancid is correct for 99% of shooters they don't need a BCM or Colt. I have Bushmaster I bought in 2002. It has 15,000ish rounds through it, on its 3rd barrel and the only thing I have changed is the bolt. It has been very well maintained. It just shoots and shoot and shoots. So if a basic AR can have that kind of reliability, and durability I am thinking a BCM or a Colt should really last a long time if properly maintained. Your parts list is good. Seekins makes great stuff. Spikes tactical is just basic AR parts, I believe they are made by LAR or CMT. I believe the mid and low grade rainier barrels are just Wilson blanks chambered and contoured by WOA. Wilson barrels are used by a huge number of AR OEM rifle builders. Obviously they have multiple quality levels. The high end rainiers are shilen barrels. CMMG I believe is LAR manufactured. This is a really old list so I am sure lots has changed. But is kind of gives you an idea of how things all work with AR parts. Lewis Machine & Tool (LMT) * LMT * Lauer * DS Arms * PWA * Eagle * Armalite * Knights Armament * Barrett Continental Machine Tool (CMT) * Stag * Rock River Arms * High Standard * Noveske * Century (New) * Global Tactical * CLE * S&W * MGI * Wilson Tactical * Grenadier Precision * Colt LAR Manufacturing (grizzly) * LAR * Bushmaster * Ameetec * DPMS * CMMG * Double Star * Fulton Armory * Spike's Tactical JVP * Double Star * LRB * Charles Daly Mega Machine Shop * Mega * GSE * Dalphon * POF * Alexander Arms Olympic * Olympic * SGW * Tromix * Palmetto * Dalphon * Frankford * Century (Old) |
||
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
||
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
What really differentiates one AR from another (apart from individual preferences on component selection) is:
1. Barrel quality -- some use higher quality barrel blanks than others. It's a matter of what the "maker" requests. They get the quality level they pay for. 2. Materials used and parts fit in the BCG 3. Trigger quality 4. Magazine quality 5. QC from the company whose name is on the rifle. The brand of upper and lower receivers and the materials they're made from isn't anywhere near as important as some make it out to be. Some uppers and lowers are made of 6061-T6, some 7075-T6, others 7050-T7 aluminum alloys, and still others are even made from polymers and carbon fiber. Some are machined from billet, some forged and machined, and some cast. Obviously, some materials and manufacturing methods yield mechanically superior physical properties than others in an absolute sense, but those differences are basically irrelevant for the task they're subjected to, except for advertising purposes. The upper and lower receivers aren't subjected to much stress since the bolt lugs don't bear against anything aluminum when locked in battery, and all are much stronger than required. Some uppers and lowers include minor details that others don't, yet they all accept the same industry standard small parts interchangeably. As long as the upper and lower mate together with reasonable tightness and the manufacturer adhered to industry specs, for the most part, none of the upper and lower receivers are necessarily any "better" than another. As Supertool said, a small handful of shops make the aluminum parts on CNC machines for multiple "manufacturers" anyway. The rest is much less important. Grip and buttstock styles are personal preference. They all work. The same goes for hand guards and gas blocks. A gas tube is a gas tube; pin is a pin is a pin. Outside of the main parts mentioned above, the remaining components used are really no better or worse than other choices that could be made, as long as whoever put the thing together rejected any parts with obvious flaws... which goes back to #5 above. |
||
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
||
bugsNbows
Optics God bowsNbugs Joined: March/10/2008 Location: North Georgia Status: Offline Points: 11201 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Take a decent company like Alexander Arms. Drop in a good barrel like Shilen. Add a Geissele trigger. The end result is a pretty darn good unit.
|
||
If we're not suppose to eat animals...how come they're made of meat?
Anomymous |
||
RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Yep. My comments above of course assume a basic level of manufacturing competence to ensure the "simple" details are taken care of (i.e., burrs removed from holes, features checked for size and true positions within spec, gas key properly staked, parts installed in correct orientation, headspace verified, etc.).
|
||
Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
||
cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
If I had it to do all over again, I'd just get a Colt 6920 and call it a day.....
|
||
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
|
||
supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Instead of your BCM? I really want to try a Daniel Defense as well. My cousin has taken several week long armorers courses and he is a big fan of the DDs and BCMs. A colt would be fun to have as well. My local Walmart has a colt 6920. If only I had the cash |
||
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
||
Chris Farris
TEAM SWFA - Admin swfa.com Joined: October/01/2003 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 8024 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The SWFA SS-AR is top tier.
Glen Seekins makes the uppers and lowers for us and all the other parts we use are top tier.
|
||
supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Those are a thing of beauty. |
||
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
||
Sparky
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: July/15/2007 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 4569 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The QC is a big issue. I have used a few DPMS ARs that had the factory installed JP trigger and I was unimpressed with it. But the same model DPMS that had the trigger replaced by the local gunsmith with a JP and it is an entirely different story. That was a nice trigger. |
||
cheaptrick
MODERATOR Joined: September/27/2004 Location: South Carolina Status: Offline Points: 20844 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Yeah. I like my Bravo and it's been 100% reliable, but I don't think it's worlds better than the 6920.
|
||
If at first you don't secede...try..try again.
|
||
mil169
Optics Journeyman Joined: February/28/2012 Location: Nebraska Status: Offline Points: 378 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Correct me if my understanding is wrong. But what I've basically gathered is this: the upper and lower housing don't have much affect on the quality of the rifle as long as you use components that are in spec, gas tubes are basic and not much differant from one to another, barrels affect accuracy but as long as the chamber is in spec it should not affect reliability. But the small parts in the lower (including the trigger)and the BCG are important. The BCG is easy, the BCM is $170 and the Spikes is $140, so for $30 you can have the BCM. But what would you go with for the LPK? Should I just by the KNS turned lpk and add trigger and springs? Do they make that much of a differance?
|
||
Sgt. D
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: February/20/2008 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 4525 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Quote) barrels affect accuracy but as long as the chamber is in spec it should not affect reliability. Barrel chamber and barrel extension tolerances will effect ammo options. The match grade barrels I have used don't feed steel case ammo. I know, why would anyone feed a match rifle cheap ammo. Believe me it happens. I've had to drive more than a few cases out of a barrel. I do like the colt uppers for a rifle that will eat anything you have on hand. But my colt ain't a match grade rifle either. I've also never had a Bushmaster that would feed steel cases. I do recall a few here that said they had no problems with theirs. I haven't been so fortunate. Ofcourse now I have enough brass that I don't consider steel ammo any more. Hopefully those days are long gone. As for triggers and springs, it really comes down to what your goals are. If your shooting bench and want a light crisp trigger then you build to that. If your into plinkin and shootin a yote or varmint the same set up will work but is it worth the expense? I wouldn't use a AR for home defense unless it was the first thing I could get to. But I would prefer it to have a crisp but slightly heavier trigger to help prevent a adrenalin punch fire. That's why you see JP Enterprise offer different spring sets for law enforcement vs bench and varmint. |
||
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
|
||
BeltFed
Optics Retard Joined: February/12/2008 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 22287 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
Just want to watch this subject.
|
||
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
|
||
supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I bet 90%+ of your accuracy comes from the barrel. A few years back I bought two exact same WOA 16 barrels with matched bolt. I wanted to do a few tests to see what would happen. Once of them was a break in test (in my testing it made zero difference) The next was I wanted to build an AR with all high end parts and one with basic parts. So I bought a Sundevil Billet upper an lower, Young Mfg match grade chromed carrier. Timney 3 lb trigger The second I bought Del-ton upper and lower, Del-ton bolt carrier. Milspec Delton trigger. I shot the same ammo out of both of them. Handloads 75 grain hornady match with varget and wichester brass. They both were free floated Both of them would easily shoot sub .5s and 100 yards 5shot groups. I got a few .3s with both of them as well. I eventually sold both of those guns in parts, just because I like to build and sell and build again. But for the most part now, I could care less what the parts are. As long and I have a decent barrel I am happy. I still do like to make sure I buy good quality carriers that have MPI tested bolts and properly staked keys, but everything else matters very little. I don't even care about triggers that much. I have stock triggers in most of my ARs and for my needs they work just fine. |
||
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
||
koshkin
MODERATOR Dark Lord of Optics Joined: June/15/2004 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 13182 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I do not have any real high end ARs, but all the ARs I currently have I built myself out of pieces I picked, so I got to look at a lot of them very carefully.
Using quality parts is a big deal and having seen how some, supposedly reputable, people assemble these, I just said screw it and started building them up myself. I sure as hell pay more attention. My 5.56 has Voodoo barrel which is very good for the money, but not a top tier barrel. Still, of the pencil barrels, this is my favourite. I am a big fan of clamp-on gas blocks. Every time a gas block moves on me, it has a set screw design. Pinned gas blocks are good, but a pain to remove. 5.56 Lightweight carbine: Double Star lower and upper Voodoo nitrocarburized pencil barrel 14.5" with YHM flashhider Vltor clamp on gas block Generic gas tube (they are all made in the same couple of places) RRA chromed BCG (I might get a higher end BCG and use RRA as a spare) Lancer carbon fiber handguard Geisselle SSA-E trigger RRA LPK Ergo grip (but I wrap these anyway) Vltor Imod stock kit The barrel is pretty accurate for a pencil weight design, and the trigger is very helpful in extracting that accuracy. I finished the build not too long ago, but have not had any issues so far after a few hundred rounds. This is the rifle I use for positional practice, so I expect to have a couple of thousands round through it by the end of the year. We'll see how it holds up. ILya
|
||
mil169
Optics Journeyman Joined: February/28/2012 Location: Nebraska Status: Offline Points: 378 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
The other gun I assembled, I used a clamp on gas block. My only concern was getting the ports lined up. I just kind of guessed at top dead center and went with it. It must have worked, as the gun has functioned flawlessly for the most part. My question is, is there a scientific way of locating a clamp on gas block?
Edited by mil169 - July/14/2014 at 21:12 |
||
supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
Post Options
Thanks(0)
|
|
I use a pencil and just draw lines
|
||
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
||
Post Reply | Page 123> |
Tweet
|
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |