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Best Low Light 10 x 42 Binocular

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    Posted: February/13/2014 at 16:04
Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:

When she had the 7x in her hand she said..."OH my word these are what I want, I can even see them blink their eyes!".


That's nothing!

With my Fujinon 7x50 FMTR-SX I can see the mites in their feathers. WOW!      

Edited by Bird Watcher - February/13/2014 at 16:26
I prefer Porro prism binoculars especially those made in Japan. (i.e. Minox BD 10x44 BP) 8>)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bird Watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2014 at 15:57
Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:

"I'm not getting any younger and my eyes are not what the once were and need all the help they can get."


She stole that line from me! 8>)


I prefer Porro prism binoculars especially those made in Japan. (i.e. Minox BD 10x44 BP) 8>)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Klamath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2014 at 15:44
Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:


Later on down the road I introduced her to my discontinued Nikon 10x50 Gold Ring Sentinel Porro prism binocular & it bacame a favorite of hers.

The clincher is, she is almost 75 yrs. old & wears eyeglasses, so you would think that a 10x would not be such a big hit.

She admits that the Nikon gets a little heavy after a short period of time, but from a sitting position it is still one of her favorites.

Actually that is kind of opposite of what you might expect.  I'll always remember at the Bald Eagle Conference I mentioned earlier there was a Little old lady, kind of the sort that would look like anybody's grandma walked up to the Brunton guy and demanded to see the most powerful binocular he had.  When asked why she wanted that one her answer was on the lines of..."I'm not getting any younger and my eyes are not what the once were and need all the help they can get.  

She eventually agreed to the test protocol.  Outside the OIT Student Union was a big water fountain and there were some Ravens playing around.  When she had the 7x in her hand she said..."OH my word these are what I want, I can even see them blink their eyes!". 
 
Another of the world's great optical mysteries I suppose Smile
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bird Watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2014 at 15:22
Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:

I might start a magnification selection thread.

Have heard nothing from Brunton as yet.

That Fujinon of yours is one I want to get at some point.




Steve,

A magnification selection thread sounds like fun.
The final results would probably lean in your favor.

Brunton has never 'grabbed' my attention over the years, perhaps
it is a lack of advertising; or a lack of Porro prism binoculars. 8>}

The Fujinon 7x50 FMTR-SX Porro has always given me the 'WOW' factor, during the daytime.

I also have a Fujinon 12x60 HB roof prism which is just the opposite, the 'WOW' is more noticeable at nighttime, for stargazing.

Here's something that I forgot to share.
Several years ago I purchased a Leupold 6x32 Katmai for my wife.
You know the story...less hand shake, nice & small & lightweight for a woman's smaller hands.

She had fun playing around with it in the backyard.
Shortly thereafter I introduced her to my Minox BD 10x44 BP Porro prism and she took an immediate liking to it & was partial towards it.

Later on down the road I introduced her to my discontinued Nikon 10x50 Gold Ring Sentinel Porro prism binocular & it bacame a favorite of hers.

The clincher is, she is almost 75 yrs. old & wears eyeglasses, so you would think that a 10x would not be such a big hit.

She admits that the Nikon gets a little heavy after a short period of time, but from a sitting position it is still one of her favorites.





I prefer Porro prism binoculars especially those made in Japan. (i.e. Minox BD 10x44 BP) 8>)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Klamath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2014 at 14:45
Stan,

Thanks very much for that.  Sometimes I think it is going to be a foregone conclusion that 10x wins.  So I suppose I do seem ...eightcentric Smile.

Regarding your request for evidence, I have asked a couple of places from optics sources I have and I tend to...so far anyway...get the "sorry that's proprietary line.  So when I get the stuff I want ( I now curse myself for not being more diligent in either making notes or using the bookmark function) I might start a magnification selection thread.  Have heard nothing from Brunton as yet.

That Fujinon of yours is one I want to get at some point.


Edited by Klamath - February/13/2014 at 14:57
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bird Watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2014 at 14:27
Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:

In truth I really do not care what people use.


Steve,

With all the time & energy that you have devoted, now and in the past, it is very hard for me to believe that you "really do not care".

I guess when it comes to each individuals eyes, and their personal choice of binoculars, some things will always remain a MYSTERY when it comes to what our eyes/brains experience optically.

Thank you very much for your hard work on this forum.

I really enjoy reading your stuff, even if it seems to come across a little biased towards 8x. 8>)

Respectfully,

Stan



I prefer Porro prism binoculars especially those made in Japan. (i.e. Minox BD 10x44 BP) 8>)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Klamath Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2014 at 13:49
I'll likely bid this thread good bye with this post, depending where it goes.  In truth I really do not care what people use.  I guess what bugs me is when somebody tells me I'll see more detail with a 10x on a tripod.  You will also get more detail from 7x and 8x from a tripod too. That bugs the devil out of me. Even guys like Matt, who is one of the posters here I always pay attention to.  If I could see that extra detail with the 10x, I'd be a 10x user.  I respect Matt's position because hes figured out his preferences out in the world with real optics in real situations.  So for, that matter have I Big Smile .

Like I don't see chromatic aberration either.  A bunch of PM's I seem to get are polite suggestions on how to see the detail from a tripod or how to see CA.  People are in disbelief sometimes that everyone does not see things the same way they do.

I get completely that when your target is a resolution chart, 10x will give better separation between smaller line spacing's.  The entire concept of measuring the resolution in terms of arc seconds is weighed to favor more magnification.  We now have as much pure resolving power as many eyes can  use.  Next time you are at the resolution chart try measuring the distance of separation upon the distance a binocular can separate lines and divide that distance by the magnification to get feet of separation per each single x of magnification.

There are lots of things that figure into the detail eyes can get off a target.  Resolution and magnification are certainly very important.  However they are not nearly as important as how relaxed your eyes are behind the binocular, the depth of field, . the contrast...CONTRAST, CONTRAST,CONTRAST.  CA control, Color representation and color bias in the image.  The list could go on.

Just to clarify, I have two perfectly normal better than 20/20 eyes for my age (65).  In fact a few months ago when I had to renew my drivers license I got the mandatory...well since you are 65 we better see how well you can see.  I looked in the screen thing and was asked if I could read the highlighted line.  I said sure, but I can read at least 4 lines further down the chart.  The lady clearly did not believe me, so down the chart we went one line at a time.  When we were finally done her comment was..."well we sure don't see many 65 year old men with eyesight like yours".  Maybe that's why I like 8x, because for me it is enough, I really do not know.  Put a gun to my head and I am hard pressed to tell 8x from 10x.  Side by side it is easy enough, but a blind test is something else again.  10x is sure not enough bigger for me to get any more detail

Let me hereby make completely clear I have never intended to say 8x is the defacto choice for everybody.  I think it is for most.  So ultimately the only way to get where you want to be is to get there by yourself with real world experience in your AO.  I cringe when I see..."well I'm going hunting out west where the distances can be pretty long, so which 10x binocular should I get"?  You can get different ideas from places like this, that's indisputable, but the only eyes that can make that choice are yours.  Just DO NOT DEVELOP any preconceived notions heading into the process.  That is both the single most important thing you can do.  It is also the most difficult...almost impossible in fact.
Big Smile

  


Edited by Klamath - February/13/2014 at 14:14
Steve
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bird Watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2014 at 11:35
Originally posted by anweis anweis wrote:

I picked the top model Brunton 7x42 without knowing what it was and without looking at it.
I don't remember the model name.

This was on a terrace overlooking a lake with many birds.
I looked though the binoculars and i went "wow" like never before.
I really had a shock when i looked at the binoculars and realized that they were a 7x.


One of my binoculars is a Fujinon 7x50 FMTR-SX.
When comparing the Fujinon 7x to a couple of other 7x50 binoculars
I was 'surprised' to learn that the Fuji 7x magnified more than the
other two binoculars. (larger image scale)

I also had a similar experience using a Russian Tento 20x60 Porro prism binocular.
When compared to my Pentax 20x60 PCF WP II binocular the Russian Tento 20x had a little more magnification.

I sent my Pentax 20x60 to one of the optics 'wizards' over on cloudynights.com
& after he tested & measured everything the Pentax turned out to be a 19x57.

Obviously, certain binoculars do not live up to their specifications, but they are 'close enough' to get a passing grade for the retail market.

Here are some examples:

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1761

http://www.cloudynights.com/item.php?item_id=1772



Edited by Bird Watcher - February/13/2014 at 11:56
I prefer Porro prism binoculars especially those made in Japan. (i.e. Minox BD 10x44 BP) 8>)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anweis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2014 at 10:29
Originally posted by Klamath Klamath wrote:

 
conference    optics displays  Brunton 7x42
My experience was similar. I went to a conference/trade show about 2005. At that time i had been using very good 10x42s and 10x50s (Leica and Zeiss) for 8 or 10 years. I picked the top model Brunton 7x42 without knowing what it was and without looking at it. I don't remember the model name. This was on a terrace overlooking a lake with many birds. I looked though the binoculars and i went "wow" like never before. I really had a shock when i looked at the binoculars and realized that they were a 7x. Neighboring tables had most other top brands in 8x32, 7x42, and 8x42. One of SWFA's competitors had several tables there, loaded with the best of the best. They also had the very models which i owned and had at home and used (10x).
One hour later i could no longer tell myself that 10x is the best for me and i decided that changes were in order. I now use 8x32 for about 80% of time and 7x42 for the rest. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stickbow46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2014 at 09:45
Just to add 1 other brand that is I think significant in this bino debate & that is the KOWA Genesis.This has been a very informative write,Thanks to all your contributions.
 
I personally like my Leica Trinovids,sorry I ever sold my Zeiss FL 7-42 & appreciate my Canon 8x32's They all have their merit.........
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote anweis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2014 at 09:35
Oh, we also have to talk about "long range hunting" and the necessity of ultra magnums for deer hunting and the hunters who come to the range in a $50,000 truck to install a bubble wrapped rifle scope on a $200 rifle (magnum!) on the evening before the season opens. I bet they
also use the nice 16x32 binoculars that were on sale for a while. Or maybe not, why would they, since they have the 20x rifle scope?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/13/2014 at 04:30
WHOA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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It is the same when you are stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2014 at 21:05
Originally posted by Peddler Peddler wrote:

I think this horse might be dead!

What a spoilsport, Skip!

This horse will never be dead, it gets its power from our yellow sun.

Now on to a "straight vs. angled" thread followed by "most accurate factory rifle."
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bird Watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2014 at 21:05
Ted,

Thank you.
I prefer Porro prism binoculars especially those made in Japan. (i.e. Minox BD 10x44 BP) 8>)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peddler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2014 at 20:19
I think this horse might be dead!
When you are dead, you don't know you are dead.It is difficult only for others.

It is the same when you are stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2014 at 19:54
Originally posted by Bird Watcher Bird Watcher wrote:



Just for the sake of clarification only:


Happy to clarify.

Notice I didn't say other powers don't exist among the high end stuff; I said you have more limited options... MUCH more limited options. On every flagship line, there will always be 8x and 10x models available no matter what, usually with multiple objective sizes (32, 42, 50, and sometimes 56mm) to choose from. Not so with 12x, 15x, and 20x; you typically have one objective dia choice in those magnifications, and never a midsize choice. My comments were intended to be pertinent to my championing the virtues of "light and handy" because once you go above 10x, "light and handy" is out the window. Secondly, I was responding mainly to Matt's 6x analogy by pointing out if one wanted more compactness, FOV, and DOF than 8X32/42 offers, there isn't much to choose from. Less than 8x is neglected territory; likely because they won't sell well.
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bird Watcher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2014 at 18:06
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Then, of course, there's the simple reality that if we stray outside of 8X and 10X, the manufacturers don't give us many options to choose from, so that kinda narrows it down, especially if we're interested in the high end stuff.


Ted,

Just for the sake of clarification only:

Leica offers binoculars in 12x & 15x.

Meopta offers binoculars in 6.5x & 12x.

Swarovski offers binos in 12x & 15x

Zeiss offers binoculars in 12x & 15X & 20x.

Who/what else do you consider "high end stuff"?
I prefer Porro prism binoculars especially those made in Japan. (i.e. Minox BD 10x44 BP) 8>)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2014 at 17:01
Yep, and that's why I concluded with the caveat at the end, as I knew that point would be raised.

If we reduced this to the ridiculous, carrying around NO bino is the lightest, least cumbersome option, and your naked eye has a wider FOV and DOF than any bino of any power. But, since we carry binos to get a magnified view of the world so we don't have to "zoom with our feet" and so we can get a closer view of skittish critters, we need some magnification. We then have to decide for ourselves how much is enough before the resulting optic is no longer an easy totin', practical hand-held tool.

From considerable time spent using a Vortex Viper 6X32, and as much as I really like that bino optically, I personally want more reach than it provides for all-around use. Speaking from a purely magnification standpoint in a handheld optic, I think 10X is about right... however, though I could live with 10X just fine, it also happens to be the tipping point where the unavoidable design tradeoffs of more magnification involves too many checks in the "con" column...for me. All things considered, I believe 8X is a useful compromise between enough magnification and enough viewing area in a nice form factor. It's admittedly a subjective decision, but nevertheless one made as the result of a lot of time spent using all the magnifications mentioned except 7X.

Then, of course, there's the simple reality that if we stray outside of 8X and 10X, the manufacturers don't give us many options to choose from, so that kinda narrows it down, especially if we're interested in the high end stuff.



Edited by RifleDude - February/12/2014 at 17:06
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2014 at 16:20
Great post Ted.

Of course I agree completely, except for your conclusion on which you prefer. ;)

I will just add this point (and this builds on the point of your last paragraph) you can swap 8x for the 10x and 6x for the 8x in your list of advantages without changing any other words:


Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:



So, to recap:

All else being equal, a 8X bino provides greater detail than 6X, provided the optic is held steady enough to fully take advantage of the increased magnification. Advantage 8X.

6X binos are slightly more forgiving of less steady hold, even if the difference isn't great and is fairly easy to overcome. Advantage 6X.

6X binos are usually lighter and more compact than 8X versions, specifically when comparing binos of similar EP dia. Though some will argue that heavier, larger binos are easier to hold steady, that is debatable, and I've yet to meet the person who thought larger heavier binos were more enjoyable to carry around all day. Barring the extremes (the tiny "compact" binos), and barring weight reduction being made at the expense of long-term durability, I'm betting more users than not would view less weight and bulk as advantages. Advantage 6X.

6X binos always have more FOV than the same model bino in 8X. Advantage 6X.

6X binos of the same design always have more DOF than the equivalent 8X. Advantage 6X.

6X binos usually exhibit less noticeable CA than 8X versions of the same bino. Advantage 6X.

6X binos always have a larger EP, for more "relaxed" view and greater apparent "brightness" than a 8X version of the same bino with the same objective diameter. Advantage 6X.

6X binos are typically less expensive than the same bino in 8X. Advantage 6X.

With few exceptions, the only advantage a 8X bino offers over an 6X version of the same model series is extra magnification. re forgiving bino. If I need more than 6X, I probably need more than 8X too, so give me a spotting scope.



Each point remains true, but now the 6x looks like the clear winner over the 8x.

Or we could do it with 10x and 12x, and 10x could be the winner!

So we all have to choose where on the spectrum we draw the line. I don't think there is a wrong choice, just a personal one.
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/12/2014 at 16:02
Interesting discussion.

Ah, the classic 8X vs. 10X binocular debate!

Of course, as with any other topic like this, there are no absolutes. Which is "best" has everything to do with how, where, and under what conditions you typically use your gear and what is most important to the individual.

If all I had available to me was 10X (or even 12X, for that matter) binos, I'd pick a great 10X42 roof prism bino and happily use it with a big grin on my face for the rest of my outdoor life. Upper mid range binos have improved so much of late that I'd likely make a different purchase decision today than I would have a decade ago, but that's another discussion for another thread topic.

I have both 8X and 10X binos, and have logged countless hours peering through both. Both work well. I like 10X binos just fine; I just happen to like 8X better. I don't wish to try to convert anyone away from their own preferences, ain't trying to yank anyone's chain, and I don't think anyone here is full of baloneyWink.
...but in the interest of hopefully adding something worthwhile to the topic for someone out there who may be "sitting on the fence" over what to buy, I'll offer my own perspective on why I prefer 8X. In no way do I believe my views on this are more valid than the diehard 10X-ers; they're simply based on what works best for me, given how I typically use binos and what tradeoffs I'm most willing to accept.

Again, there is no "best." As with virtually all other pieces of gear with multiple variables available to choose from, there are a series of design concessions that always have to be made, and the individual has to decide what is most important to him/her. Increases or improvements in any desirable feature never yields a linear increase in benefits. Reality eventually ruins all the fun.

I'm a diehard deer hunter, almost exclusively in east and south-central TX, so I use binos mostly for deer hunting in relatively thick cover, although I also use them for the occasional hunt out west as well as for travel and wildlife watching. Most of the time, I don't have unobstructed views of more than 500 yds in any direction in my AO.

I totally concede the fact that -- given equally steady support and equal quality optics -- one will see slightly more detail with 10X than 8X. That goes without saying when objects appear closer. Given that the very purpose of binos to begin with is to get a closer view of distant objects, it would seem logical that having more X's would help you accomplish that goal better, especially in more open country where average viewing distances are further. If those additional X's came with no penalties elsewhere, I'll take 'em any day...and give me more than 10, in fact. But, spotting scopes exist for a reason.

I can hold a 10X bino steady enough to realize the extra magnification advantage, when I'm able to support the bino properly. If I have to take a quick, "one-handed" look at something (e.g. a potential "shooter" buck approaches while I'm bowhunting, and I have bow in hand), 8X has a decided advantage in view steadiness.

Despite my big, fat arse (or perhaps because of it), I tend to gravitate toward the lightest, most compact gear that will still get the job done with aplomb. I'm more likely to carry around a piece of gear that's lighter and less cumbersome, as it's more enjoyable to use and therefore gets used more often. When it pertains to my hobbies, I always want the "good stuff," and am willing to pay the piper to get it, yet I'm not willing to make heavy concessions on quality and performance in the pursuit of light and handy. So long as the gear in question is well-made, durable, and performs exceptionally, being light and handy is always a check in the "pro" column for me.

I enjoy being able to take in more scenery while glassing, and the more scenery I have in the view at one time, the faster I'm likely to pick up off axis movement, with less panning required. Wider FOV also means a greater % of the view is in optimal sharp focus. Within reason, I'm personally willing to sacrifice a bit of magnification to get more field of view.

The less refocusing I have to do while panning at varying distances, the more I enjoy using my binos. Having greater depth of field also helps to spot movement and pick out game faster, so I can glass more efficiently. Having greater DOF is especially handy as it gets darker, because it becomes increasingly difficult to discern optimal focus in poor light as object detail gives way to darkness. As a result, I find that if I pre-focus at 25-50 yds or so, everything I'm likely to be able to discern and take a shot at as I reach the limits of legal shooting light will still be reasonably close to optimal focus without me having to touch the focus knob again. Obviously, DOF becomes less critical as distances increase until you don't need to refocus at all beyond a certain point when making drastic changes in viewing distance. However, where I hunt, most of the action is fairly close-in, and even when I'm hunting out west, you never know where game animals might appear, so I'll take as much DOF as I can get.

I'm pretty sensitive to CA. It annoys the crap out of me. No matter how well a given bino design controls CA, I can't think of any examples where CA isn't more noticeable in the higher magnification versions of a given model of bino.

I want as much exit pupil as I can get for more relaxed viewing without eye strain and more apparent "brightness" as daylight wanes. Though I'd prefer more, I've found that 4mm dia EP is an acceptable minimum for most uses, for my eyes. I can get that with an 8X32 bino, but I have to go to 42mm binos to get approx the same EP with 10X. I've become a huge fan of good 8X32 roof prism binos of late due to their wondrous combination of handy form factor, super wide FOV and good overall optical performance without what I feel are significant compromises, but different people will have different views on what is and isn't "significant." At the same time, an 8X32 isn't typically so small that you have the cramped ergos of true "compact" binos. Regardless, you always have to step up to the next larger objective size with 10X binos vs. 8X to get the same or similar EP size. This, along with the increased focal length that comes with increased magnification means that the 10X version of a given series will typically be larger and/or heavier than the 8X version.

So, to recap:

All else being equal, a 10X bino provides greater detail than 8X, provided the optic is held steady enough to fully take advantage of the increased magnification. Advantage 10X.

8X binos are slightly more forgiving of less steady hold, even if the difference isn't great and is fairly easy to overcome. Advantage 8X.

8X binos are usually lighter and more compact than 10X versions, specifically when comparing binos of similar EP dia. Though some will argue that heavier, larger binos are easier to hold steady, that is debatable, and I've yet to meet the person who thought it was more enjoyable to have a brick dangling from their neck all day long vs. a comparable optic weighing less than 1 lb. Barring the extremes (the tiny "compact" binos), and barring weight reduction being made at the expense of long-term durability, I'm betting more users than not would view less weight and bulk as advantages. Advantage 8X.

8X binos always have more FOV than the same model bino in 10X. Advantage 8X.

8X binos of the same design always have more DOF than the equivalent 10X. Advantage 8X.

8X binos usually exhibit less noticeable CA than 10X versions of the same bino. Advantage 8X.

8X binos always have a larger EP, for more "relaxed" view and greater apparent "brightness" than a 10X version of
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
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