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will rain and high humidity..... |
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bobaldoo
Optics Apprentice Joined: June/06/2011 Location: alberta canada Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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Posted: August/13/2013 at 13:38 |
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was wondering if rain, low temperatures and high humidity have any effect on bullet speed..does it cause drag or does the bullet and its shockwave clear a path...
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"I can hear you, the rest of the world hears you and the people who knocked these building down will hear all of us soon." g bush....
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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All have an effect.
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338LAPUASLAP
Optics Master Scope Swapper Joined: October/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2596 |
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was wondering if:
rain = High Drag full value decrease distance or increase in elevation per x feet of rain per type light heavy per direction per SPEED (that is the biggest impact) low temperatures = causes high or low impact based upon many factors: no moisture in the air at extreme low temps causes bullet flight path to remain more constant for longer period of time... the temp of the case the primer the powder the temp of the every part in the path of the bullet and surrounding the cartridge the chamber the barrel all have an extreme effect. Kodiak Alaska has a a few day course on the effects of cold weather on just the cartridge and the firearm all else being equal they assume you already know about the humidity change and the other atmospheric changes present. high humidity: dense air vs light air usually many other factors come into play for high humidity as hot air holds lots moisture more easily the bullet it self sees this as drag as you questioned. All slow the bullet nothing every increases the bullet speed since the bullet exists the barrel and hits the atmosphere many forces fight the bullet down and inhibit the speed of the bullet. have any effect on bullet speed.. does it cause drag or does the bullet and its shockwave clear a path... NO such thing the turbulence the bullet tip or nose creates cannot protect it self in a forcefield or clear a shockwave making it not affected by the laws of physics. many models of complex math can prove this but if you think logically it makes sense just like you throw a baseball everything wants that ball to stop except you. Mile high stadium is easy to knock them out of the park but still physics fights the ball down... |
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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Yea, a little off the mark, but then again, you were Army, right?
Humidity, like high temperature, decreases air density; and lower air density means less drag on the bullet. If you look at a good ballistics program, like JBM, there will always be variables of temp, barometric pressure, altitude, and humidity. Unless you go to extremes or the ranges get long, you won't notice big changes; but at distance and at the extremes of environmental conditions will see big changes in bullet flight. Carry on.
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Kickboxer
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Marines are gun hogs...
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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338LAPUASLAP
Optics Master Scope Swapper Joined: October/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2596 |
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I'm not back tracking reread what I wrote no I'm not good with words but we said the same less the rain in 100% humidity...
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338LAPUASLAP
Optics Master Scope Swapper Joined: October/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2596 |
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I will repost when I am not driving
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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Good idea.
Put down the phone.
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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338LAPUASLAP
Optics Master Scope Swapper Joined: October/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2596 |
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Humidity, like high temperature, decreases air density; and lower air density means less drag on the bullet.
Yes, but the effects do not lift the bullet, regardless the bullet is still dropping. Rain is High humidity but rain itself drives the bullet down and slows it as well as each collision occurs. The bullet path never curves upwards. Barometric pressure never allows the bullet to curve up even when shooting down into it our model in our math has to change to account for the changes in altitude and barometric and humidity and temps but the bullet never curves up our curve lessens but never moves upwards. Now reread the post and hopefully it makes more sense. Just as the constant or consistent drop in cold weather remains as severe. Just as the high humidity high temp less drag but still drag and never does it push the bullet. Models are rated for this and my true point is that SPEED is really what effects a bullet, WIND is the better word for this but it can come in the form of "rain speed" or impact timing frequency as well. My dense vs. light = is showing low vs high (horrible as I did not explain but was rather trying to format the question for the OP. Regardless it does not allow the bullet a time in a vacuum it is still drag while not as severe as the area, region, or zone where the humidity is moderate. Lets take a shot taken from 2000ft to 800ft at 800m across a a mountain top to a surrounding town where a bad tree or a defective tree is the target. Biggest factor wind is taken out (later to be discussed if you want) The bullet has 4 zones if you will 2 temperature 1 humidity and 1 elevation(in water column or mercury or Hg) while some of these zones will not be as severe in drop they all show drop but the overall shot will impact at a higher point than anyone drop model due to barometric pressure... Maybe I just confused everyone a little more. The idea is that even if the drag or pressure downward is not as great it never is moving up...High or Low Humidity or Temp doesn't matter changes the curve but never does the law ever not work against the bullet. "rain = High Drag full value decrease distance or increase in elevation per x feet of rain per type light heavy per direction per SPEED (that is the biggest impact) low temperatures = causes high or low impact based upon many factors: no moisture in the air at extreme low temps causes bullet flight path to remain more constant for longer period of time... the temp of the case the primer the powder the temp of the every part in the path of the bullet and surrounding the cartridge the chamber the barrel all have an extreme effect. Kodiak Alaska has a a few day course on the effects of cold weather on just the cartridge and the firearm all else being equal they assume you already know about the humidity change and the other atmospheric changes present. high humidity: dense air vs light air usually many other factors come into play for high humidity as hot air holds lots moisture more easily the bullet it self sees this as drag as you questioned. All slow the bullet nothing every increases the bullet speed since the bullet exists the barrel and hits the atmosphere many forces fight the bullet down and inhibit the speed of the bullet. have any effect on bullet speed.. does it cause drag or does the bullet and its shockwave clear a path... NO such thing the turbulence the bullet tip or nose creates cannot protect it self in a forcefield or clear a shockwave making it not affected by the laws of physics. many models of complex math can prove this but if you think logically it makes sense just like you throw a baseball everything wants that ball to stop except you. Mile high stadium is easy to knock them out of the park but still physics fights the ball down..." Edited by 338LAPUASLAP - August/14/2013 at 15:36 |
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338LAPUASLAP
Optics Master Scope Swapper Joined: October/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2596 |
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Better said to the OP.
The bullet path is one where the bullet will always be pulled towards the earths core. Nothing can cause the bullet to be shielded from this effect, we could get into what happens through windows, and keyholes and shooting loops but that is for Rancid and KB. As each obstruction or loophole and or keyhole is cleared the turbulence acts a curve upward(lessening drop curve) in overall Bullet Drop as the Turbulence boosts the bullet once cleared in milliseconds and assists the bullet forward, this is in some structures as depth and width and length vary so it is near impossible to compute from a distance but can be guesstimated by spoiler round... Some is also accounted to the hole as not turbulent air to begin with or non wind affected depending on hole direction and tunneling effect.
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338LAPUASLAP
Optics Master Scope Swapper Joined: October/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2596 |
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I am horrible with words never does it ever not seem this way...
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Son of Ed
Chuck Norris Joined: June/18/2011 Location: TEXAS Status: Online Points: 122211 |
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...I liked the part about the Earth's Core!! Sounded like Edgar Rice Burroughs!!!
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Visit the Ed Show
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Kickboxer
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We are in 100% agreement on this. I just wanted you to make it easy for me to understand, never questioned your understanding...
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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Rancid Coolaid
MODERATOR Joined: January/19/2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 9318 |
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When the earth's poles flip, will that effect bullet flight?
How about the moon, does it impart any flight changes? We had a protracted conversation years ago about bullet rising vs falling. Some insisted that the bullet was always falling, I disagreed (adamantly) stating that falling, by definition, meant the distance between earth and bullet is always diminishing. I understand the point that the bullet is always being sucked toward the earth's core (it contacts the surface, but does indeed get sucked toward the core), but a bullet is most definitely rising during part of the flight to target. In truth, the barrel always (in any case I can consider reasonable) points up relative to the optical line of sight. Carry on, and all parties should understand we are giving each other a hard time because we value one another's input and knowledge. Were little things like ( unintentionally) inaccurate statements pertaining to humidity and air density to stand, we'd all be worshipping the god that is JGRaider, speaker of the famous line, " If
I sometimes use a word or two that's wrong or misplaced, is it really that big
a deal?" We simply have to hold ourselves to a MUCH higher standard than that! |
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Freedom is something you take.
Respect is something you earn. Equality is something you whine about not being given. |
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Sparky
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: July/15/2007 Location: SD Status: Offline Points: 4569 |
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I am not sure I follow you RC. Are you saying that high humidity decreases air density? I would say that high humidity increased air density. Also someone said if I remember correctly something to the effect that when it is raining it is 100% humidity. That is not correct. |
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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I'm glad this got re-instituted.. tally ho... As long as you concede that the bullet never "rises" above the "line of bore", we have some agreement. However, it DOES begin to "Fall" immediately upon departure from the barrel, unless your bullet is continuously propelled. Since bullets are ballistic creatures, propulsion ends immediately upon departure from the barrel. in some cases before. Traveling along an upward trajectory and still "falling" are not contradictory situations. If you wish to define "falling" only as when all "upward" motion has ceased, that is a simplistic way of looking at it and only partially correct. Although the fall is infinitesimal in the first micro/milliseconds, it is still there. There is a downward vector of motion as soon as propulsion is removed. As drag and gravity exert greater influence due to loss of velocity, downward motion becomes more pronounced, and therefore "visible" (which is what some term "falling"). The semi-parabolic curve begins immediately upon departure from the barrel. If your bullet has continuous propulsion and reaches "escape velocity", then it never falls, unless/until it reaches some greater gravitational field... Effects of pole reversal are really an "unknown". It has not occurred in recent history. We know it has happened and it appears the effects are minimal since it occurs over millennia. If it were rapid, my guess is that you would see significant impacts. We are way overdue for a pole reversal... perhaps we will get to find out. Since the moon's effects are, in spatial concepts, relatively constant, it is "already accounted for". If the moon were suddenly pushed off its axis or orbit, then yes, you would see some impacts, however their effects on bullet trajectory would probably not be your greatest concern.
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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bobaldoo
Optics Apprentice Joined: June/06/2011 Location: alberta canada Status: Offline Points: 72 |
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thanks for the imput fella's....
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"I can hear you, the rest of the world hears you and the people who knocked these building down will hear all of us soon." g bush....
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Kickboxer
MODERATOR Moderator Joined: February/13/2008 Status: Offline Points: 23679 |
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humidity does, in fact, decrease air density... water vapor, humid air (dominated by H20), has lower molecular weight than dry air (dominated by N2 and O2)... since number of molecules is constant, decreased mass in a given volume, therefore, less dense.
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Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living |
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338LAPUASLAP
Optics Master Scope Swapper Joined: October/17/2009 Status: Offline Points: 2596 |
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Southern hemisphere shots are a different factor of CA than that of northern hemisphere. In the turntable frame (denoted B), the x- y axes rotate at angular rate ω, so the trajectory becomes: and three examples of this result are plotted in the figure. To determine the components of acceleration, a general expression is used from the article fictitious force: in which the term in Ω × vB is the Coriolis acceleration and the term in Ω × ( Ω × rB) is the centrifugal acceleration. The results are (let α = θ − ωt): producing a centrifugal acceleration: Also:
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