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JGRaider View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JGRaider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/26/2013 at 13:51
Chuck Hawk is a blathering stupidazzzz, to put it mildly.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Longhunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2013 at 05:40
I agree with Bigdaddy on the Browning BLR.  We've had two BLRs in the family.  Still have one.  Both were/are really fine hunting rifles.  They both shot 1 1/2 inches or less (3-shot groups) with factory ammo even without having the trigger tuned.
 
Browning shotguns are another matter.  I bought a new Belgian-made Lightning over-under 20 gauge (back in 19-never mind!), thinking it would be the shotgun love of my life.  It was a beautiful shotgun, and handled like a dream.
 
HOWEVER...The inertia trigger stopped working on the second shot on cold mornings.  (A single-shot double is a disaster on a quail hunt!)  I tried having it fixed by Browning.  Terrible service...no luck...repeated failures on the second shot.
 
THEN...The word leaked out that Browning had used salt cured wood on an extended run of their shotguns.  Of all the dumb irresponsible things for any gun manufacturer to do!
 
Bottom line...I sold it, and am off Browning shotguns forever.
 
Beretta has a good record if you want an over-under shotgun.  Ruger's 20-gauges are great, but you may have to have the trigger fixed after a while.  (This is common for many if not most over-unders.)   
 
My own preferences on doubles?  First, I prefer mechanical triggers.  What good is a second shot in an inertia-trigger gun if the first shot doesn't go off, or the trigger doesn't reset?  I prefer two triggers on a side-by-side shotgun.  They are easy to use (despite many comments to the contrary), are reliable, and give a much quicker choke selection than any button or switch.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2013 at 12:47
Originally posted by Longhunter Longhunter wrote:


THEN...The word leaked out that Browning had used salt cured wood on an extended run of their shotguns.  Of all the dumb irresponsible things for any gun manufacturer to do!
 


Just to clarify, in the interest of accuracy...

Browning did indeed have a huge problem with guns rusting at one time, and the culprit was indeed from using salt-cured wood. HOWEVER, that problem was only present in guns made from the late 1960's to the early 1970's. I don't know the exact dates, but suffice to say, if you have a Browning made prior to about 1965 or made later than about 1972, you won't have a dreaded "salt wood" gun. The issue was not limited to shotguns, but also the T-bolt .22, the bolt action rifles, and maybe a few others. At any case, it is easy to see if any particular gun has the salt wood by either removing the action from the stock or removing a screw from the buttpad. If there's no rust where metal contacts the stock, it's not a "salt wood" gun. It doesn't take but a couple days for steel to begin pitting when in contact with any salt combined with moisture-laden air.

It's important to note that the problem was NOT really due to an irresponsible decision on the part of Browning, and if you understand what happened at the time, it's easy to see it was an honest mistake. Understand that Browning, like most gun manufacturers, did not and does not cure (dry) their own wood; they buy pre-cured wood from suppliers. In this case, Browning was having problems meeting order demand due to the fact they couldn't get enough wood from their current supply chain. The culprit was the time it took to dry out blanks by the traditional kiln-drying method. Other suppliers air dry their blanks, but this takes even longer. Browning began searching for other suppliers for wood blanks to ship to Belgium. During this time in the mid to late 1960's, they found a wood supplier in California who could meet their volume demand. It turns out this supplier was able to speed up the drying process by packing the wood in salt. Browning was either not aware of this fact or was not aware that the salt, once it worked its way into the pores of the wood, could never be completely removed or sealed up with finish. They discovered the problem only when customers started sending their guns back in large quantities for rust pitting in the areas where metal contacted wood. They replaced all guns that were sent to them with the problem, to the point it nearly bankrupted them. Some guns were obviously never taken out of circulation because their owners never removed the stocks and therefore never noticed the problem. The possibility still remains that you could find one of the "salt wood" guns for sale today, but the chances are very rare, since the majority of buyers and sellers of Brownings from that era are very aware of the problem and will check for it.

On the inertia trigger system on O/U shotguns... yours either had some kind of manufacturing flaw, or some kind of crud managed to get into and gum up the works, as they are extremely reliable systems because they are so simple. There are a lot of guns using the same general design as on the Brownings. Browning makes both intertia driven and mechanical fire control systems in their shotguns, depending on model. Consider than John Browning invented the single select trigger O/U shotgun with the Superposed. Actually, he died during its design phase, so his son Val Browning saw it through to production. Every O/U shotgun since then, including Browning's own Citori series is a variation or modification of the Superposed. Browning also invented the short recoil inertia operating system, used on the Auto 5 and later many other shotguns. So, Browning has long been the innovator in shotgun designs, and has been copied by more other manufacturers than anyone else. Their shotguns are not at all lacking in quality or innovations, but everyone prefers different things. Also keep in mind that Browning does not actually build anything; it's just a brand name and a design firm. It does and has contracted out every gun bearing the Browning name to manufacturing firms in Belgium (FN Herstal), or Portugal or Japan (Miroku). These firms have been building guns for many years.

This is not meant to imply all Brownings are flawless guns. As I stated, I personally don't like their modern bolt actions all that much. I also don't particularly care for their insistence on mirror shiny wood finishes and gold-colored triggers, and some of their stock designs on various guns were not my cup of tea. However, their inertia operated and O/U shotguns and rimfires are based on designs that are proven over many decades and have become literal classics. Browning is owned by FN, and their QC standards are right up there with the best manufacturers, and has a much better track record than, say, Remington in my experience.

I'm not at all demeaning your experience; just saying that your experience with Browning O/Us is not typical. For all the duds Browning has released (mostly in the late 1970's and 1980's), their O/U shotguns are perhaps their biggest strength.
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2013 at 14:27
Ted thanks for taking the time to explain this and set the record straight. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bigdaddy0381 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2013 at 14:33
Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:


Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

Keep the Tikka, I'm not a browning fan.....



Just saying,


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2013 at 20:20
Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:


Originally posted by Bigdaddy0381 Bigdaddy0381 wrote:

Keep the Tikka, I'm not a browning fan.....



Just saying,


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or NOT...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Longhunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/27/2013 at 23:37
RifleDude:
 
Thanks for the interesting information on the salt wood Brownings.
 
Remember that Browning did NOT successfully fix my trigger, despite my sending the shotgun to them for repairs under their lifetime warranty.  It continued to malfunction on cold mornings.   I used a number of other inertia trigger shotguns during that same time period without a problem, so it wasn't my shooting style.  The Distinguished Expert patch on my wall will confirm that. 
 
The single-trigger O/U repair situation is not a one-gun problem.  I wish it were.  Shooters in my group have experienced single trigger problems requiring repair on Ruger and Krieghoff O/U shotguns, just as  I did on my Belgian-made Browning.  However, their triggers were repaired without any problems. 

I can assure you that each and every one of these shotguns was meticulously maintained, and it was not due to any external materials entering the action.  Haven't heard of any Berettas having this trouble. 

 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/29/2013 at 09:25
I don't doubt anything you say, Longhunter, and if I'd had the same experience with a Browning inertia o/u as you, I'd likely share your opinion.

However, the fact remains that the Citori is probably the best selling o/u shotgun made. Its mechanical operating system is a variation of the original Superposed, which has remained essentially the same for 82 years. It (Superposed and Citori) has been manufactured longer than any other over/under design on the planet. It has a proven reputation for being a very reliable, well-made shotgun. Obviously, your copy has a manufacturing flaw of some kind and Browning hasn't fixed the problem. Nevertheless, if your experience was typical for the entire line and the design had inherent flaws, those facts would not be possible. Browning would have been forced to redesign its mechanics or they would go bankrupt on the cost of returns. Obviously, that hasn't happened. No company would continue making a flawed product for 82 years.

All that aside, if you search hard enough, you'll find someone out there who has had issues with pretty much any firearm in existence. Nothing mechanical made by human beings is immune to failure. As always, your mileage may vary.

Back to the Browning vs. Tikka topic... both are reliable, good shooting rifles for the most part. I just happen to prefer other rifles. Despite my earlier comments, I actually like the new X-bolt's barreled action. I don't care for the A-Bolt, but I do believe the X-bolt action is a more slimmed down, less chunky, more refined design. I like the X-bolt's bolt lock release button at the root of the bolt handle, its 4-screw mount pattern, and its new trigger. What I don't like about it is the excessive use of plastic in the magazine/ "bottom metal" and its stock design. If Browning had mated the same action to a more traditional stock shape without the strange "style line" in the buttstock, the deep flutes at the top of the forend, and the huge angled magazine housing cutout and used a traditional steel hinged floorplate instead, I'd be really hip on the rifle. I've heard that it feeds smoothly, but I just can't warm up to plastic magazines and plastic parts in general. I have the same issues with the Tikka.
Ted


Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle.
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