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30-06 acsubond 180's with RL-19 help

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/09/2013 at 13:15
 
  First thing to check on is what OAL your mag box will handle. 
 
  Alot of reloaders start with the ogive lightly touching the lands but since I'm developing my loads strictly for hunting I'll start at .005 off the lands. Just me maybe.  Seems the closer the better accuracy though.  So should you stick with .131 or go to .020?  Got to see how they shoot.  One good thing seems to be,as Sinclair Intl. has found out, is that once an optimum distance off the lands(cartridge OAL) has been found for a particular bullet that depth will work for other bullets in that particular rifle. It's worked out that way for me.
 
  Sometimes it just works out that compacted loads give the best accuracy.  Seems the fuller the case the better. It's a sign that that particular powder is approaching the slower end of the burning rate spectrum.  Use too slow a powder and you'll actually not be able to get enough in the casing to achieve even a practical velocity.  Nothing wrong with them as long as they don't apply enough pressure to move the bullet out of the neck some.  You can also use a drop tube on the funnel or powder measure to better seat the powder.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2013 at 18:14
Originally posted by avery avery wrote:

I also have another question and it is about loads that are over 100% of case volume? Is this quite normal are there extra precautions to when doing this? I'm asking because Nosler Re-loader 7 is indicating using RL-22 and 180 grain AB is the most accurate combination and 2 of the 3 weights show indicate 100% of more fill.
Interesting that they published the most accurate load in their rifle.
In '06, RL19 works about as well for me as RL22 until I get into 200 gr and above. RL22 usually has a bit faster velocity below 200 gr. at higher pressure with more powder.
Since RL17 released, may not replenish my empty stock of 19 and 22.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2013 at 19:11
That's a good point to keep in mind their listed most accurate load is for their test gun... Thanks that didn't cross my mind...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2013 at 20:32
 
 Nosler went from using custom and production rifles (#2 manual 1981) to using universal receivers (#4 manual in 1996)equipped with bbls from various top brand manufacturers that were of SAAMI minimum spec bores and chambers.  Their web site lists bbl manufacturers with the load data so it looks as if they're still using the universal receivers.  This data is good in that Nosler is showing you the actual velocities they got safely at or near the assigned SAAMI listed max pressure for that particular cartridge. In over 30yrs of using Nosler data I've found that starting with that most accurate load powder is never a bad place to start.  If possible it's good use the same components they use for that particular data also.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/11/2013 at 23:20
The only components that I was going to use different than what is listed in Book 7 is Federal 210 match primers in place of the WLR listed. The accurate load is rl-22 with 62 grain which is the max load as well. I was thinking of starting at 60 and working up 60,60.5,61,61.5 and then 62. I'm planning on loading 5 of each and heading to the range. Start shooting @ 60 and working my way up to 62 checking for signs of over pressure. I also have a box of factory federal premium 180 AB which i plan to shoot a few of first so that i can inspect the case and primers so i have something to compare. I don't have a cromo yet so i wont be able to monitor speed. I will be trying the local store tomorrow to see if they have on for a reasonable price, but as of right now i don't have. Again my rifle is a tikka t3 30-06... I have the impressions that the max listed pressures are defiantly attainable with my rifle and they would be more of a concern if i was using and old rifle chambered in 30-06 (is this wrong to assume?)    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/12/2013 at 10:00
 
  That's why I said "if possible" about the components. Sometimes you just can't do it.  ESPECIALLY nowa days.   Whacko  No problem though.
 
  When people start discussing their personal reloading procedures your going to get many varied opinions on how to go about it.  As long as it's first safe and second it works for them you can't fight success.  That said,if you'll notice at Noslers site and I'm guessing in your manual their starting loads are 4grs under max for the 180gr bullets for the .30-06.  In MY OPINION starting at only 2grs under max is not a good idea.  Even when I rework a load because of a component change I start at 3grs under my max working load. 
 
  Each rifle is an individual in and of itself(differences in chamber dimensions,bore diameters,leades,etc.)so the age of a rifle,assuming it's in good condition,is not a reliable way to determine the max load it can handle.  This is where in MY OPINION a chronograph is necessary.  Sure,you can monitor speeds and thereby determine the potential trajectories of your loads but if you believe as I do that the there is a direct relationship between velocity and pressure that chronograph can be used to determine when your approaching and at maximum.  NEVER exceed Noslers max velocities because they are at max safe pressures.      
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2013 at 00:30
Thanks for the advice the only reason i was thinking about starting at 60 was i have read in a couple of forms that with a 30-06 and rl-22 "you cant put enough into the case to get to max pressure" and "the reason nosler reloading book states 62 grains as max is because it's 110% of volume and you cant fit anymore into the case".... I will though take your advice and load a few at 58.0,58.5,59.0,59.5 as well, i have 50 new cases to use so may as well use them all up and make a day of her.....

my friend was out of town today and picked up a crono for me, a little spendy but he agreed to pay half cause he want to have access to it... It was a chrony gamma master and it came with a printer..... Just another thing i'm going to have to learn how to use! Seams it never ends.... My friends grandpa told him today there two types of people with crono's people who have shot it and people that will..... I hope i fall in neither of those....

Thanks again for the guidance...

  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/13/2013 at 06:52
 
 Your quite welcome.
 
  I'm GLAD to see y'all sprang for a chronograph. I've had mine (an ol'green chrony) since they came out.  If I only had $1.00 for every bullet or arrow that's crossed over it.  Never been shot. Just make sure the rifle used has been checked for poi on the target before you start ESPECIALLY if it's not your rifle.  Lots of advice around on using the chronographs.  I'll just tell you that I set mine at 15' from the muzzle (add 15fps for correction),only use it on overcast days if possible,and I like to develop loads in hot weather when pressures would be their highest. You'll learn the best way to use it.
 
  No need to load 5 rounds of each. 3 will do. Actually I do 1 each up until I decide to drop to 1/2gr increments. I then go to 3 starting at the load before the 1/2gr drop and watch how they group. Your accuracy load could very well be under Noslers max. Also no need to increase at 1/2 grain increments from the start. With the chrono you can watch your velocity increases. I'd go with 58,59,60,61,61.5,and 62 unless you start approaching Noslers max velocity early on (or you'd feel more comfortable at 1/2gr earlier) then you may want to go 1/2gr earlier.  Two things I watch the chrono for as I increase my charge weight are 1)only a slight increase in velocity for the powder increase from what you were getting and 2)a drop in velocity after a powder increase.  Over the yrs I've found that #1 means I'm approaching the test rifle's max (I stop adding powder when I'm within 50 or 60fps of reaching Noslers max anyway or unless I find my accuracy load before I get this far) and #2 although I've rarely had it happen means I'm over max (per a load check program) but not enough to show any of the "usual" pressure signs. You'll learn from experience. Once I find my accuracy load I fire 5 rounds,use to do 10,over the chrono to get an average velocity. Also keep records. 
 
GOOD LUCK.
 
 
 
Earl 
 
 
 
 


Edited by 300S&W - April/13/2013 at 07:01
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/19/2013 at 16:06
Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

 
  That's why I said "if possible" about the components. Sometimes you just can't do it.  ESPECIALLY nowa days.   Whacko  No problem though.
 
  When people start discussing their personal reloading procedures your going to get many varied opinions on how to go about it.  As long as it's first safe and second it works for them you can't fight success.  That said,if you'll notice at Noslers site and I'm guessing in your manual their starting loads are 4grs under max for the 180gr bullets for the .30-06.  In MY OPINION starting at only 2grs under max is not a good idea.  Even when I rework a load because of a component change I start at 3grs under my max working load. 
 
  Each rifle is an individual in and of itself(differences in chamber dimensions,bore diameters,leades,etc.)so the age of a rifle,assuming it's in good condition,is not a reliable way to determine the max load it can handle.  This is where in MY OPINION a chronograph is necessary.  Sure,you can monitor speeds and thereby determine the potential trajectories of your loads but if you believe as I do that the there is a direct relationship between velocity and pressure that chronograph can be used to determine when your approaching and at maximum.  NEVER exceed Noslers max velocities because they are at max safe pressures.      

Well said, Sir.
Velocities with loads approaching max pressure show a "diminishing returns" effect, with velocity increases getting incrementally smaller with equal increases in powder.

A good .30-06 will last many thousands of rounds with less than max pressure loads. Slight decreases in max velocity result in much larger decreases in max pressure.

There will always be some powder which gives max velocity for a particular bullet combo, but there is often a powder which yields close to max velocity with considerably less powder and/or pressure.

While many riflemen see no need to load most rifles at max pressure (if you need greater reach/power, get a more powerful rifle), there are some calibers just naturally prone to short- lived barrels (.243s,  RUMs/ ROYs, etc). In such cases, when a barrel may not last beyond 1000 rds. no matter what, you might as well go for it... but that's just my 2 cents. Inevitably, the real barrel burners can't tolerate much of a reduced load anyway, lest detonation ruin your whole day.

Since I load for several .30-06 rifles (Can't have too many .30-06 rifles,) I use reduced loads as a matter of course. As it turns out, that's just the way the factories do it. Can I tailor specific accurate loads for specific rifles? Yes and thanks be to Rem, Win, FC, Horn and all the other brass makers for helping me to keep it straight.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2013 at 03:39
I was to the range yesterday, but the conditions were crappy, minus 4 deg C, snowing and the winds were a little gusty. It was difficult to make out the 8x8x1" Red Cross on the 200 y target with the naked eye. I didn't bring the chronograph because of the weather, so I only shot the 59.0 gr load and just 4 of the 5 so I could save one to test n the crono. I shot at 200 y and the following are the distances between every shot.

1.54;1.67;0.54;1.42;1.25;1.32

The way people tend to report there group size would be to pick the largest spread so 1.67@200 or about 0.835@100. for my purposes of trying to find my mot accurate load should I just find the average distance between all shots? I would think that would be a better indication of the load accuracy. If that was the case I would use 1.29@200 or 0.645@100. I know that if I'm talking about the groupings I personally can shoot the first method is the method to use but the second seams more applicable to what I'm try to accomplish here.

I will try to post picks but I'm not sure i know how. Pluses the paper is in pretty rough shape because of the snow and wind.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2013 at 03:43
Another thing I thought would be a good representation would be to throw out the smalest Measurment and the largest Measurment and find the average of the remaining. any thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2013 at 10:50
I have a finlight chambered in 243 win its disappointing to hear the barrel will be burnt out after 1000 rounds...I have the dies, brass and bullets ready Togo after I get a load figured for my 30-06...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2013 at 12:12
I try to attach a picture and it tells me to enter a web address? can I just upload from my computer?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2013 at 12:26


200 yard 4 shoots with my first load, nosler 30-06 brass, nosler AB 180gr, 59.0 gr RL-22, federal 210m primer, jump set at 0.020". my shooting isn't the best but for the record the conditions where less than favourable shooting from a sand bag. I'm happy with the first load and hope with more testing they start to group together a little tighter...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2013 at 12:27
https://www.dropbox.com/s/833gdtn1r92mbhk/Photo%202013-04-19%206%2055%2037%20AM.jpg

That didn't work ill try to jus past the link above...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/20/2013 at 12:41
 
  Just getting ready to head out.  GOOD start for sure! You need 50 posts before you can put up pics.  Maybe someone will post the pic.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2013 at 16:16
Originally posted by avery avery wrote:

I have a finlight chambered in 243 win its disappointing to hear the barrel will be burnt out after 1000 rounds...I have the dies, brass and bullets ready Togo after I get a load figured for my 30-06...
Lots of people report getting 1500-2500 rds from their .243 before they quit shooting groups...
Protect the barrel's throat by allowing the barrel to cool after you shoot (example) 3 shots. Proper cleaning becomes a must- get and use a good bore guide/rod combo. 
Loading at less than max pressure helps minimize that barrel expansion/contraction which starts the whole barrel erosion process.

Here's your group-


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote avery Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/24/2013 at 00:00
Thanks for the advice and postosting my grouping and the advise on the 243... I've had few people laugh at my choice of caliber in my tikka t3 (30-06)... Telling me they aren't a accurate bullet and decently not accurate at longer ranges ( I consider 5 to 6 hundred long range) .... With the proper load and obviously shooting practice would it be wrong to expect to shooting decent groups @ 4,5 and with enough practice 600?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2013 at 11:44
Originally posted by avery avery wrote:

Thanks for the advice and postosting my grouping and the advise on the 243... I've had few people laugh at my choice of caliber in my tikka t3 (30-06)... Telling me they aren't a accurate bullet and decently not accurate at longer ranges ( I consider 5 to 6 hundred long range) .... With the proper load and obviously shooting practice would it be wrong to expect to shooting decent groups @ 4,5 and with enough practice 600?
Even though there are a few (damn few) cartridges which are inherently more accurate than the .30-06 (in capable hands,) it would be a big mistake to call the .30-06 inaccurate.  Most US target records were set with a .30-06 before the advent of the military 7.62Nato (.308Win) and many competitors use the cartridge, today. Do a search for "German Salazar" and see what he thinks about .30-06, or search for Carlos Hathcock and see that he had some measure of success with an '06. In addition to being chambered in just about the most versatile cartridge ever created, your Tikka is probably as accurate as you will be able to make use of, at least, just getting started... Develop an accurate load and practice with it if you want to be able to make those long range shots. Remember, a 1 MOA rifle/load combo will shoot ~ 6" groups at 600 yds under the best of conditions. You're right, a 500-600 yd shot is long range.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/26/2013 at 12:14
Tell those numbnuts who were laughing at your Tikka that the M24 US Sniper rifle system is based on a long action Remington M700, because it originally used the .30-06, but the military switched to the shorter 7.62 NATO round because they no longer had a reliable source of .30-06 ammo, not because the rifle wasn't accurate enough for their needs as originally configured in .30-06 (They also make a version on the same Rem 700 action in .300 Win Mag.)

By the way, in terms of being useful at 600 yds... your .30-06, if properly loaded with a 208gr. Hornady A-Max, or 200gr Nosler Accubond or similar, will have more energy remaining at 600 yds than a .30-30 has at 50 yds... that should do it.
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