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Effective Arguments

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Graysteel View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graysteel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Effective Arguments
    Posted: January/21/2013 at 11:19

I have been doing my best to have conversations with folks who are ‘on the fence’ about the threatened new firearm restrictions. I have found at least one argument that seems to resonate with them.

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Many of these folks have been told that the only reason that the Newtown shooting happened was because of the AR firearm and the magazine capacity.

 I have found a very effective rebuttal to this position is to politely explain that this simply isn’t true. I then point out that in the Virginia Tech murders, more people were killed and no ‘assault rifle’ was used. In fact, relatively low capacity magazines (10 and 15 round) were used. I then point out the Newtown shooter actually had two similar pistols on him, so it doesn’t really make a difference which specific firearm or magazine capacity he used on defenseless victims - the outcome is the same.

 At that point they are generally able to see that there is something disingenuous about going after specific firearms and magazines. The can generally then understand that this appears to simply be a spin job aimed at an incremental grab. And, some even seem to get the idea that arming potential victims might be a better answer.

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 I would encourage others to please post arguments that have found to effective with those ‘on the fence.’ We all know that “Preaching to the choir” isn’t very helpful. We need to find out what arguments are resonating with those who can be reached. Please stick with discussions you have found to be actually effective rather than ones you postulate will be effective.

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BeltFed View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BeltFed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 11:28
Good idea Graysteel.
Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trigger slap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 19:32
I got this, I believe from Andrew Wilcow. If you are the victim of a home invasion, which do you want, a phone or a firearm?
How can we call it unalienable when we allow it to be suspended revoked or restricted?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 20:21
If you're inside a building with a mass murderer who opens fire, would you rather have a new gun law in the books or a gun in your hand?

When seconds count, the police is only minutes away.
Ted


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Thumb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 20:28
While I agree with the OP and I also disagree:
 
The point that anti gun folks have is
 
no guns = no murders
 
 
Geo-spatially speaking you missed :o)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trigger slap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 20:43
The no guns=no murders fallacy is not valid on any level. The government will still have guns.           

A LITTLE GUN HISTORY

In 1929, the Soviet Union established gun control. >From 1929 to 1953, about 20 million dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

In 1911,

Turkey established gun control. >From 1915 to 1917, 1.5 million Armenians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

Germany established gun control in 1938 and from 1939 to 1945, a total of 13 million Jews and others who were unable to defend themselves were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

China established gun control in 1935. >From 1948 to 1952, 20 million political dissidents, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

Guatemala established gun control in 1964. >From 1964 to 1981, 100,000 Mayan Indians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
—- ————- ————-

Uganda established gun control in 1970. From 1971 to 1979, 300,000 Christians, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
——————————

Cambodia established gun control in 1956. From 1975 to 1977, one million educated people, unable to defend themselves, were rounded up and exterminated.
—————————–

Defenseless people rounded up and exterminated in the 20th Century because of gun control: 56 million.

How can we call it unalienable when we allow it to be suspended revoked or restricted?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 20:49
Originally posted by M1Thumb M1Thumb wrote:


The point that anti gun folks have is
 
no guns = no murders
 
 


1. They're wrong. There are numerous murders with implements other than guns. Just ask OJ.
2. You cannot legislate morality, and there will always be criminals in every society. A person intent on murdering another will do so by whatever means available to them, gun or no gun.
3. In 2011, more Americans were murdered by hammers than by all rifles combined, regardless of type.
4. We have a 2nd Amendment guaranteeing the individual, "natural right" to armed self-defense that trumps their point. The fact that a small % of the 600 million guns owned by American citizens are used in the commission of a crime is the unfortunate price of Liberty.
5. The same gun that can take an innocent life can also save same.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 20:55
abortion kills more people in this country than guns do, who is stopping that???
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccoker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 21:09
logic doesn't work with these people..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Thumb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 21:11
One thing to point out is that the New Town shooting killed numerous folks - kids - in a short time span.
 
The anti gun faction seems to not be understanding that other things are surely and slowly killing children as well as adults but in lieu of having numerous killed in a short span it is stretched out over a long period.
 
They have focused in on firesarms because of the mass kill incidents and the news media reporting shootings.
 
If the news media started reporting other things with the same vigor that they report gun incidents I would be curious what would be on the plate now......
 
RD - no arguemt from me on your points.
 
 
Geo-spatially speaking you missed :o)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MC Escher Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 21:14
I was talking with my Mother yesterday...

Went through a few rational reasons why the laws being proposed and passed are silly...

Then I told her to forget all that. Forget whether a law makes this gun illegal or that magazine illegal or any of that stuff... No matter what you do or don't do... No matter what's legal or isn't...

It's still illegal to shoot people.

"Mom, I just can't picture that guy in Newtown walking up to the door with two pistols and a rifle, in the grip of a murderous rage, seeing a sign that said "No Guns Allowed" and saying "Dammt!" before heading home."

The older I get, the better I feel about tearing up parking tickets and cheating on my taxes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Thumb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 21:23
MC - you are correct
Geo-spatially speaking you missed :o)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trigger slap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 21:56
Originally posted by MC Escher MC Escher wrote:

I was talking with my Mother yesterday...

Went through a few rational reasons why the laws being proposed and passed are silly...

Then I told her to forget all that. Forget whether a law makes this gun illegal or that magazine illegal or any of that stuff... No matter what you do or don't do... No matter what's legal or isn't...

It's still illegal to shoot people.

"Mom, I just can't picture that guy in Newtown walking up to the door with two pistols and a rifle, in the grip of a murderous rage, seeing a sign that said "No Guns Allowed" and saying "Dammt!" before heading home."

http://youtu.be/S7pGt_O1uM8
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trigger slap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/21/2013 at 22:50
How can we call it unalienable when we allow it to be suspended revoked or restricted?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graysteel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 18:31

Not to resurrect a dead thread, but in the spirit of the original post:

I recently talked someone who is from Canada who said they have had good luck swaying folks who are neutral about firearm laws with the following:

Basically, Canada went through something very close to what we are facing today in the U.S. with the end result being that guns were nearly banned for a bit. They have since loosened the restrictions. However, when they first put the new laws through they had a significant increase in home invasions almost immediately with some fairly high profile and grizzly results.  

This is obviously a more effective argument when presented by someone who lived though it directly, but it does seem to resonate with folks who are neutral on firearm ownership.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Thumb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 21:24
Problem is you can present the facts from Australia, The UK, and Canada to the folks and they say ppppfffft  trumped up information - they are a my way or the highway mind set...
Geo-spatially speaking you missed :o)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sgt. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 21:58
Looks like Gabby Gifford jumped ship, her and her husband. Wonder what it took and from who??
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote M1Thumb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 22:03
Originally posted by Sgt. D Sgt. D wrote:

Looks like Gabby Gifford jumped ship, her and her husband. Wonder what it took and from who??
 
I read a short blurb that both were gun owners but they are dead set on getting rid of firearms as I understand it - is that what you are referring to ??
Geo-spatially speaking you missed :o)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sgt. D Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/30/2013 at 22:30
Saw on the news today she was placing herself in opposition to the NRA's stand of "common sense, laws and bans do not effect criminals". Earlier this month she voiced that guns were not the problem. She's been bought or pressured cause the change is to abrupt!!
Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Graysteel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/31/2013 at 09:24

I understand that there are a lot of folks who won't be swayed by logic or any argument. However, there is a large group in the middle that is open to discussion. We have all gotten so tired of arguing with the extreme anti's that we don't spend much time looking at what arguments are effective with the folks who might be swayed. I have personally, talked to several people who started out with the position "I don't really see the need for X type of gun." and left the discussion with them understanding why they have value.

The way I see it our focus needs to be on figuring out which folks we can reach and the best way to do that. I am taking a young lady to the range this evening who is interested in learning to shoot. She is one of the reachable ones. I wouldn’t have figured that out if I hadn’t worked on my ‘soft sell’ approach a bit.

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