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Why can I not import a Burris FFII riflescope?

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Dirtyoldsix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dirtyoldsix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2012 at 03:16
 
<profanity removed>


Edited by koshkin - July/09/2012 at 10:24
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Dirtyoldsix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dirtyoldsix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2012 at 03:27
Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by Dirtyoldsix Dirtyoldsix wrote:

Sir Hoppalot, I live and South Africa and have experienced similar problems. I also got advice from some very friendly optics Masters on this site.  The problem is with mildot, military type scopes, not hunting scopes. This is what I did.
 
1. I have a sister living in Tallahassee, Florida. Everything I purchase, gets delivered to her doorstep. Very often for free.
 
2.  She then makes up a parcel called "gift" with contents labeled  "optical equipment"
 
3.  It takes 2 months and its here. I have a 100% success rate.  US postal services are VERY efficient.  The South African postal services are pathetic! The big risk is once it is in SA. With New Zealand that should not be a problem
 
The first scope I bought was to test the system and it was a cheapy, Pentax Gameseeker. Then a Sightron S2 Bigsky and finally 4 Leopolds (VX3). Currently I am waiting for "prescision metal parts" aka Nosler 260gr accubonds!!Big Grin

We have these laws for a reason... actually more than one reason.  It is unfortunate, but it IS the world we live in.  Though our governments often betray us and deceive us, create hypocrisies  that are outrageous, there is some reason behind the laws preventing the shipment of some optics/armaments overseas.  We do not, generally (though some among us are different) want to arm our adversaries with equipments that are equivalent, or in some cases better, than what our own military and police organizations have ready access to, and we do not wish to provide them with the means to exploit our technologies and advance their own on the backs of our citizens monetary investments.  1) it is bad security/self defense, 2) it is BAD investment.  
You have blatantly stated a disregard for the laws of my country and a flippancy toward international laws and agreements... simply because there is something YOU want.  Your sister is also a criminal.  Regardless of what you think of the laws you and she are violating, you ARE criminals... federal criminals and international criminals.  What if your order gets into the hands of some other criminal, who would otherwise not have access to higher quality optics, and that criminal then assassinates some government leader... or just kills some innocent man, woman or child?  Who is at fault?  Perhaps you don't care, because you were just getting what you wanted.  Because it has not happened yet, to you, does not mean it won't.  You are are a criminal who has now provided criminal information on how to "defeat the system(laws)" to a large number of potential criminals and adversaries.  Some may have figured it out, some may not, but you have given direct information that is actionable.  In OUR country, when we have a problem with existing laws, we work to change them... not violate them for personal gratification.  One of the many things that sets us apart from the rest of the world... a separation I proudly acknowledge, proudly accept, proudly intend to promulgate.  
 
Thanks for your lengthy answer.  I do not appreciate you calling me or my sister a criminal. All she did was sending me optics to South Africa.  She did not lie on the package, in fact she even said it was optical equipment.  There are hundreds of South African hunters getting scopes mailed to them every day.  The package gets opened by Customs EVERYTIME and if it was illegal I would not have received it.  Like I said, somebody in America, from this forum said the only illegal scope is those with mildot reticles.  Mailing a hunting scope is NOT illegal! Maybe you must get away from your computers a little more? I have not broken your countries law or South African law so you too <profanity removed, for the final time>!


Edited by koshkin - July/09/2012 at 10:23
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billyburl2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billyburl2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2012 at 08:30
Just because it is not illegal in South Africa does not mean it is legal in the USA. You are side-stepping laws that the distributors are following and getting things that United States does not wish exported. That is breaking our law, thus being a criminal...

If it is tourist season, why can't we shoot them?
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tahqua View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2012 at 09:31
Louis, do not use profane language on this forum to address other members. This is a warning.
Doug
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Gerry Atric View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerry Atric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2012 at 10:46
kickboxer and billyburl2,
 
 
I see a two-way street:
 
You get a no-no from the US scope-vendor - to by-pass this by acting as an US citizen (in any way)and have the scope sent abroad is a criminal act.
 
You get an OK from the US scope-vendor (correctly or by "mistake"), the scope is sent abroad - the vendor is the criminal if charged ......
 
Almost all scopes (both tactical and hunting) sold in the US are also sold in Europe, so there´s not a matter of avoiding to spread war-technology. It´s a matter of saving dollars for us europeans.
 
I´ll walk the straight and narrow.....but I like a discussion.
 
Gerry Atric
 
 
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KIMBER8400AT View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KIMBER8400AT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/09/2012 at 13:49
Originally posted by Dirtyoldsix Dirtyoldsix wrote:

Originally posted by Kickboxer Kickboxer wrote:

Originally posted by Dirtyoldsix Dirtyoldsix wrote:

Sir Hoppalot, I live and South Africa and have experienced similar problems. I also got advice from some very friendly optics Masters on this site.  The problem is with mildot, military type scopes, not hunting scopes. This is what I did.
 
1. I have a sister living in Tallahassee, Florida. Everything I purchase, gets delivered to her doorstep. Very often for free.
 
2.  She then makes up a parcel called "gift" with contents labeled  "optical equipment"
 
3.  It takes 2 months and its here. I have a 100% success rate.  US postal services are VERY efficient.  The South African postal services are pathetic! The big risk is once it is in SA. With New Zealand that should not be a problem
 
The first scope I bought was to test the system and it was a cheapy, Pentax Gameseeker. Then a Sightron S2 Bigsky and finally 4 Leopolds (VX3). Currently I am waiting for "prescision metal parts" aka Nosler 260gr accubonds!!Big Grin

We have these laws for a reason... actually more than one reason.  It is unfortunate, but it IS the world we live in.  Though our governments often betray us and deceive us, create hypocrisies  that are outrageous, there is some reason behind the laws preventing the shipment of some optics/armaments overseas.  We do not, generally (though some among us are different) want to arm our adversaries with equipments that are equivalent, or in some cases better, than what our own military and police organizations have ready access to, and we do not wish to provide them with the means to exploit our technologies and advance their own on the backs of our citizens monetary investments.  1) it is bad security/self defense, 2) it is BAD investment.  
You have blatantly stated a disregard for the laws of my country and a flippancy toward international laws and agreements... simply because there is something YOU want.  Your sister is also a criminal.  Regardless of what you think of the laws you and she are violating, you ARE criminals... federal criminals and international criminals.  What if your order gets into the hands of some other criminal, who would otherwise not have access to higher quality optics, and that criminal then assassinates some government leader... or just kills some innocent man, woman or child?  Who is at fault?  Perhaps you don't care, because you were just getting what you wanted.  Because it has not happened yet, to you, does not mean it won't.  You are are a criminal who has now provided criminal information on how to "defeat the system(laws)" to a large number of potential criminals and adversaries.  Some may have figured it out, some may not, but you have given direct information that is actionable.  In OUR country, when we have a problem with existing laws, we work to change them... not violate them for personal gratification.  One of the many things that sets us apart from the rest of the world... a separation I proudly acknowledge, proudly accept, proudly intend to promulgate.  
 
Thanks for your lengthy answer.  I do not appreciate you calling me or my sister a criminal. All she did was sending me optics to South Africa.  She did not lie on the package, in fact she even said it was optical equipment.  There are hundreds of South African hunters getting scopes mailed to them every day.  The package gets opened by Customs EVERYTIME and if it was illegal I would not have received it.  Like I said, somebody in America, from this forum said the only illegal scope is those with mildot reticles.  Mailing a hunting scope is NOT illegal! Maybe you must get away from your computers a little more? I have not broken your countries law or South African law so you too <profanity removed, for the final time>!



Look man the bottom line is this,
if during your online purchase you get a message like this one,

This item is regulated by Part 121 of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR).

By bidding on or purchasing this item, you confirm that you're buying this item for your own use, that you're a U.S. citizen or permanent resident of the U.S., and that you won't export this item outside of the U.S. . 

or anything similar

then if the purchaser does what you did, the purchaser and the one helping the purchaser are both breaking U.S. laws (conspiracy would be one of the charges)  If a U.S. citizen is buying the product but then sends it out of U.S. then the citizen is breaking the law and if the receiver paid for the item and knowingly receives this product, then again both are committing the crime, accomplice type of thing and again one of the charges would be a conspiracy.

But then again, you don't have to take our word for it, consult with a knowledgeable attorney preferably U.S. attorney.


“Don't carry a gun. It's nice to have them close by, but don't carry them. You might get arrested.” J.G.
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Dirtyoldsix View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dirtyoldsix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2012 at 05:22
"Look man the bottom line is this,
if during your online purchase you get a message like this one,

This item is regulated by Part 121 of the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR). "

 
I have never received a message like that.
 
If I am breaking any laws then this company is doing it on a daily basis, because they will send any scope directly to the buyer in SA.  I have not used the because they are expensive.
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Sir Hoppalot View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sir Hoppalot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2012 at 05:22
Hmm, a very murky matter. I shull have to investigate more when I buy another scope. No doubt the law will have changed.

I may get a good answer from a large retailer, one that has looked hard in to the matter.
Appriciate those who have offered their infomation.
"I don't know what World War III will be fought with, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
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Porcupine View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Porcupine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/10/2012 at 08:15
Gerry Atric

You have summarized this nicely. I suspect the scopes you are seeing that have been exported from the US have been exported by a company that specializes in shipping ITAR controlled goods.  It is no more work to apply for a license to ship 50 of the same items than it is one as long as it goes to the same customer so there is an economy of scale. If you get the license and comply with all the other laws including denied party screening, the items are cleared for shipment

 Kickboxer is correct about the expense of compliance.  When I dealt with ITAR my employer worked with a Washington DC law firm who billed us at $450 per hour.  Profits disappear pretty quickly at that rate. Then you need to have an in house compliance team and experienced people do not work cheap. All these costs then get passed along to you as the buyer.  I also suspect some of the additional costs you are seeing is for duties and VAT.  Duty rates for European scopes imported into the US are pretty high but we do not yet have a VAT.

It is a bit off topic but I would like to know what laws you have to comply with to buy a scope and gun in Sweden.
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Gerry Atric View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gerry Atric Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/11/2012 at 10:36
Porcupine,
 
I suspect that you´re correct about the ITAR thing.
Of course some of the costs that hurt us is the "European importers" profits + freight, duties + VAT.
 
The normal way is to get a hunting license via an examination (both teorethical and practical, for both rifle and shotgun) then you apply for a gun license for every gun you buy, pay a register-fee, and go hunting.......you are normally allowed six guns for hunting ( this by-passed by switch-barrel systems)
 
There is no license on scopes - but of course on silencers.....
 
Gerry Atric
.
 
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michaelh85 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote michaelh85 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/04/2014 at 13:50
 I am new to this forum so I'm sorry for re-hashing a thread that has been dead for quite sometime. Just thought some new dialogue would help me as well as others. 
 Shipping to S. Africa is not as complicated as it seems. Most riflescopes for hunting or target shooting can legally be shipped there with proper documentation. It is not difficult to aqcuire, only time consuming. It could take from 2 to 8 weeks to complete the process. It is my understanding that ITAR banned scopes are those that are manufactured to military specs and/or contain Gen II or higher night vision capability. It would be nice and would simplify things significantly if all manufacturers and/or distributors would compile a list of ITAR banned scopes such as these from Trijicon and Leupold.
http://www.trijicon.com/na_en/application/military_nsn.php

http://www.leupold.com/resources/trade-compliance/

 A big part of the problem is the manufacturers themselves. They don't want distributors crossing their established "trade zones" thus competing for the same business.
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