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Buying a scope which has better resale value?

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koshkin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2012 at 16:18
All right, I went ahead and gave Paul Lange (Premier Service Center) a call.

I had not talked to him since early in the year, so it was good to chat and catch up a little anyway.

Best I can tell, if he is your source, then you are completely misrepresenting what he said.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sparky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2012 at 16:49
Thanks ILya for going the extra mile and getting the facts straight from the source. 

I wonder what he would have to say about the issues that 6.5x47 had with his Premier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2012 at 16:57
I have talked with Paul extensively about early issues with Premier scopes.

Noone denies that there were issues.  They were identified and resolved with minor design iterations.  Everyone who sent in the scope with those issues got everything fixed.  

ILya


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheaptrick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2012 at 19:19
Ah hells bells!! Your a lefty too?!?! Wink

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2012 at 20:24
Seems to me there have been a number of outlandish statements made here.  One persons experience surely does not define another's, but that does not negate the validity of the experience.  While there may be some overly negative comments here, there are certainly some overly defensive comments.  

Everyone should take a chill pill...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6.5x47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2012 at 21:00
Ilya, thanks for the kind words about the Razor.  It has served my quite well, and hope it continues to do so.  I'm glad you actually talked to Paul.  Have things changed in the last couple months?

Shoot me down on some of the issues that have come up if I am wrong.

Did Chris, the owner, actually leave the company for Surefire or not?

Did they have to let go of the entire U.S. staff except Paul or not?  Have they since turned things around in the last few months, i.e. hired employees and started building scopes again?

Did the brand move manufacturing over to Optronica and distribution over to ATI until they have righted the ship?

On a separate issue about the Heritage line.  What did they ever do with the scopes that were binding  internally if the ring caps were torqued to anything over 18 inch pounds?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6.5x47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/20/2012 at 21:03
Sorry if my posts seem offensive.  Since Ilya seems to have the most recent updates, I would like to hear his view of the state of Premier.  If he doesn't want to respond, that is alright with me as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2012 at 01:03
Originally posted by 6.5x47 6.5x47 wrote:

Ilya, thanks for the kind words about the Razor.  It has served my quite well, and hope it continues to do so.  I'm glad you actually talked to Paul.  Have things changed in the last couple months?

Shoot me down on some of the issues that have come up if I am wrong.

Did Chris, the owner, actually leave the company for Surefire or not?

Did they have to let go of the entire U.S. staff except Paul or not?  Have they since turned things around in the last few months, i.e. hired employees and started building scopes again?

Did the brand move manufacturing over to Optronica and distribution over to ATI until they have righted the ship?

On a separate issue about the Heritage line.  What did they ever do with the scopes that were binding  internally if the ring caps were torqued to anything over 18 inch pounds?

The specific statement I took issue with is that the company is looking for a buyer.  I have not been able to get anyone to say that they are.  On the contrary, I have had some lengthy conversations with the principals at Armament Technologies and they flat out said that they plan to keep and grow the Premier Reticles brand.

Armament Technologies has been a de-facto owner of Premier for some time now.  Since well before Chris' departure.  They invested a lot of money into Premier and they have been handling distribution for quite some time too.  That is not a recent change.

Chris did leave the company and is no longer involved with Premier.  There are some legal complexities being resolved right now that I can not really go into, but it sounds like they are finally coming to a resolution.

US operations have been stopped and the scopes are being built where they were designed: in Germany by Optronika.  Whether US production is going to be resumed, I do not know.  If they decide to bid on further US contracts they may have to.  That having been said, I do not know if they will do it in Virginia.  That is up to them and I can think of a couple of viable options of going about it.  I think they are also expanding they assembly capabilities in Germany.

Lastly: the scopes were binding if the front ring happened to be right around a specific optical element and if that front ring was fairly narrow and very tight.  Most of the issues as I recall were with LaRue mounts which, for some reason come with instructions to tighten well beyond what I would expect for scope rings.  The remedy was very simple: you would send a scope to Paul and he would take out the housing for that optical element and take down ever so slightly to increase the tolerance a little.  That's it.

When I first heard of the issue, I got my hands on a 3-15x50 and messed around with the mounts to see if I could reproduce the problem and the problem only occurred with mounts where the front ring was either fairly narrow or not perfectly round.  It was also more common on vertically split rings for some reason.  Perhaps they deform easier.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6.5x47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2012 at 05:56
Ilya, that is the closest I've seen to a complete statement about the state of the company.  Thank you.  I will refrain from further use of the term "shopping for a buyer", and will simply reference your post from here on out.  Back in 2010, I don't know if they had a handle on the parallax issue.  You may be able to see from earlier posts that my scope, and most of my scopes, were in Seekins rings.  Those rings were torqued to spec, and I experienced parallax issues that many have complained about since.  That is neither here nor there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2012 at 06:42
I love a nice, calm, productive conversation...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote helo18 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2012 at 10:57
Originally posted by 6.5x47 6.5x47 wrote:

That scope has been very good, but is still not exactly perfect for what I need.  I actually use my scopes, and have found many scopes to come up short in several areas.  Running a lefty 90 degree bolt rules out alot of scopes for me.  

What exactly are you needs and requirements in a scope?  Most regulars here "use their scopes".  Maybe you could define what you mean by that statement.  Also curious what areas many scopes come up short in.  Obviously that depends on what the use and preferences are.  Just trying to figure out where you are coming from.

There are many lefties that shoot and post on this forum.  If you give your requirement you need in a scope, they may be able point you to scopes or setups that will meet you needs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2012 at 12:24
6.5x47, I appreciate the tone you've taken in your more recent posts. I'll explain why I took offense at some of the earlier ones: They made blanket statements about a company and its products that haven't been true for everyone...in fact, for most users of those products. It's fine to say that my particular version of product X had a failure or company Y's customer service didn't live up to my expectations. It's not okay to condemn either wholesale based solely on one person's experience, however.
Reaction time is a factor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote topbrass Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2012 at 17:22
Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

blanket statements about a company and its products that haven't been true for everyone...in fact, for most users of those products.
 
Happens here and other forums all the time.  It is more the norm than an exception.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6.5x47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2012 at 18:48
jono, not trying to get everyone riled up again, but I didn't make any blanket statements that weren't confirmed by Ilya.  Each one, with the exception of "shopping for an owner", came from posts that Paul Lange made himself.  Now the question remains, when did Armament Technologies take over Premier?  Was it when the owner, Chris, left the company for Surefire?  Or was it before the Heritage was even launched?  Ilya's post was the first I have heard of Armament Technologies.  I either missed this mention of the company by both Chris or Paul, or they simply never posted about it.  I will also acknowledge that it not required to let the public know the in's and out's of daily business, and they may have just simply let the transition take place and continued to make the brand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6.5x47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2012 at 19:03
helo18, my requirements for a scope depend on the actual use of the rifle.  For my 6.5x47 target rifle, I want a variable powered 3-25ish range, mil adjusted, mil reticle with 1/2 mil marks, illumination is nice for low light pig hunting, zero stop, and plenty of elevation to adjust for various distances.  It must track true, and be a durable optic.  The problem with the lefty bolt is that on a Schmidt Bender they have the illumination knob right in the way of the bolt throw.  I also prefer either no left side knobs, or small ones.  My left bolt stiller tac30 has the tendency to bounce empty brass off the parallax knobs and then land back in the ejection/loading port.  The Vortex Razor is just about the best scope I can come up with to meet all these requirements.  It has done everything I have asked of it, and to date keeps on ticking.  The scope is not perfect however.  The illumination controls have the tendency to get turned on when I slide the scope into my Eberlestock pack.  The illumination will stay on until the battery is dead.  I have learned to simply assume the battery is dead, and if I need to use the illumination I bring a fresh battery.  This is what I meant by the optic not being perfect.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2012 at 19:35
Originally posted by 6.5x47 6.5x47 wrote:

helo18, my requirements for a scope depend on the actual use of the rifle.  For my 6.5x47 target rifle, I want a variable powered 3-25ish range, mil adjusted, mil reticle with 1/2 mil marks, illumination is nice for low light pig hunting, zero stop, and plenty of elevation to adjust for various distances.  It must track true, and be a durable optic.  The problem with the lefty bolt is that on a Schmidt Bender they have the illumination knob right in the way of the bolt throw.  I also prefer either no left side knobs, or small ones.  My left bolt stiller tac30 has the tendency to bounce empty brass off the parallax knobs and then land back in the ejection/loading port.  The Vortex Razor is just about the best scope I can come up with to meet all these requirements.  It has done everything I have asked of it, and to date keeps on ticking.  The scope is not perfect however.  The illumination controls have the tendency to get turned on when I slide the scope into my Eberlestock pack.  The illumination will stay on until the battery is dead.  I have learned to simply assume the battery is dead, and if I need to use the illumination I bring a fresh battery.  This is what I meant by the optic not being perfect.

Make a neoprene or rubber sleeve and keep it over the eyepiece and the illumination knob when not in use.  Slide or roll it off the knob when you need to use it.  It is faster than swapping out batteries.

Aside from that it sounds like you need a smaller version of IOR's 12-52x56 terminator, which is fairly uncluttered on the left side.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 6.5x47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2012 at 19:49
Ilya, that is a great idea!  I will let you know if that works out.  I'm picturing a sleeve like you see over the top of acog's to keep the sun out.  
   Forgot to mention I need my reticle to be in the first focal plane.  Another scope that would fit the bill is a U.S. optics sn-3.  It wouldn't be hard to get them to leave the left side of the scope uncluttered.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote koshkin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June/21/2012 at 20:00
Originally posted by 6.5x47 6.5x47 wrote:

Ilya, that is a great idea!  I will let you know if that works out.  I'm picturing a sleeve like you see over the top of acog's to keep the sun out.  
   Forgot to mention I need my reticle to be in the first focal plane.  Another scope that would fit the bill is a U.S. optics sn-3.  It wouldn't be hard to get them to leave the left side of the scope uncluttered.

Something like that will work.  Make sure it is pretty wide, so that it does not slip off by itself.

ILya
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gappa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/15/2012 at 23:01
He's talking about a "scope condom" 6.5! I think the Premier LT I have has fantastic glass so much so I have another Premier Heritage 5-25x56 on the way. I did have an issue with the first LT I was sent but I think that may have had something to do with the distributor I ordered it from needless to say Paul Lange and Trevor at Armament were so fast and had a brand new scope in perfect condition at my door in three days. Really I can't complain about a thing and can't wait to see what the big Heritage will look like. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rancid Coolaid Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July/16/2012 at 08:50
Yet another reason to do business with SWFA!

Enjoy the new LT, mine performed flawlessly in South Africa.
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