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Middle caliber magnums belted or not

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hatton mann View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hatton mann Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 23:46
Uncle Willie used to say : " make the shot w/ whatcha' got". Excellent
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gulf1263 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/15/2012 at 23:56
I have only used the .338 Win. Mag. and 12ga. Brenekes on large game. My .257 Weatherby was only used on a marmot.
If it does not want to trample, gore, claw or eat you then the lighter calibers work fine.
A 30/06 with premium bullets or a 7mm. Mag. with premium bullets can kill a large animal under normal hunting conditions, however when you become the target your chances greatly increase with the .338 Win. Mag. and above.
This pertains to bolt action rifles, not the large bore lever guns which are not as good for wacking a critter at ranges over 200 yards.
Larger bore, tough bullets and the ability to get off a second or third shot make the .338 Win. Mag. my choice for North America.
Stopping a charge with a smaller caliber might work once or twice but then you are screwed on the next one..I did not find it pleasurable and had to do it many times.
I could get multiple hits with the .338 Win. Mag. and stop the animal, my life was important and doing what I had to do was not an intellectual exercise.
I have actually seen the .338 Win. Mag., .358 Norma Mag. and .375 H&H Mag. stop bear charges numerous times.
I have seen the .458 Win. Mag. fail to stop an escaping bear because of poor shoot placement because of flinch.
The .338 Win. Mag. was at my recoil threshold, it was the most powerful rifle I could practice with that would let me deliver repeat shots accurately.
I would be happy to hear from those who have done it with repeatedly under unfavorable conditions with other calibers than the ones mentioned above.
I am sure folks from Africa have used the 9.3x62.
Again, this is my experience and yours may be different and I respect that.
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Art
Good day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3 Tuns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 07:21
  The .338 WM is my favorite plains game cartridge.  Some game is big and tough and a heavy bullet is needed.  Sometimes they do not stand quietly, out in the open, and broadside.  Sometimes a second shot is required at something moving away from the rifle.  I don't hunt behind fences.
 
 
  You might run accross something at longer ranges than normal (gemsbuck or springbuck for example), so a fairly flat trajectory is good.  If it is a plains game and buffalo hunt I carry a .375, but with no buffalo it is usually a .338 WM.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 08:08
 
 Seems to me what has been forgotten for yrs was what the main reason was for offering the larger capacity cases in any caliber.  To drive the heavier bullets of those calibers faster for better ballistics.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 08:15
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

Personally this is the way I see it. 30 caliber and 7 mm caliber magnums are useless for big game stoppers. Even with premium bullets they shatter at the 3100 FPS line. The 30-06 is perfectly adequate for deer and even elk if you keep the shots at 200 yards or less. I am in fact a 30-06 fan have been for years. For most of my hunting life I used the 30-06 and the 45-70 the latter especially when hunting off horseback. That said the 338 in any magnum configuration is  far superior to either cartridge, so is a 358 Norma magnum. Higher sectional densities and better BC's are the recipe for a successful and safe hunt. IMO I don't NEED anything bigger. I can prove that a 338 is just as good and in some ways superior to either the 30 cal magnums or the eyeball displacing 458/460 magnums The same argument could be used to showcase the 358 Norma. here is such a thing as too much velocity.

i would strongly disagree with that statement. the .300H&H and the .300wby both accounted for numerous dangerous game kills back in the day. 7mm ok, i may concede defeat there, not that i strongly back the 7mag any way. as far as my .375H&H goes, i would kill anything that walks the planet with that rifle and not feel under-gunned in any situation. as far as what your talking about here, throw b.c out of the equation, most shots are taken at bow ranges, sectional density and the makeup of the bullets materials trump b.c in this circumstance.
also, as the old saying in racing goes, there is not replacement for displacement, the larger the hole the better your chances get. now i will say that placement still has to be  there on dangerous game. you take a bad shot at a whitetail with a .458 lott and more than likely its gonna die right where it was shot regardless.
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kickboxer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 10:04
I like 'em all... want one of each.  Each what you might say... EVERYTHING.
 
The 458 Lott is in a class by itself, as is 50BMG, but I really like my little 375H&H and my new 300H&H.  I don't really feel undergunned with either of those while whitetail hunting. 
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 11:06
Years ago in the late 90's if memory serves me Guns&Ammo did an article based on over 20 years of compiled data on one shot stops on Kodiak and grizzly. This was quite an eye opener for those of us who hadn't been hunting up there. Of course the 458 win was the top of the heap the 460 roy was second due to it's 90+ lb recoil and often less than Ideal shots the majority by a vast amount were the 375's the 378 the 358 norma and 338's all of which performed extremely well. This is what will surprise some of you just below the mid mags was the good ol 45-70 with a 400+grain bullet, below that was the 30-06 with a 220 bullet, were below that the 308 with a 200 grain bullet. Guess what were the worst performers of all. The 300 magnums and at the very bottom the 7mm magnums.
           If you did a shot by shot evaluation of all these calibers, here was some interesting results
of all the top performers none achieved more than 2800 fps. The ranges with the really BIG mags tended to be fairly short 150 yards- In the mid mags the ranges were from 150 to300 for the initial shot. They did very well also. Now for the problem children here is what the majority of the guides said. The lighter caliber weapons such as the 308, the 06 and the 358 class non magnums are just not powerful enough to stop a big griz or a Kodiak The 06 barely makes it into the minimums as a charge stopper at close range with a 220 grainer. The 30 caliber magnums with the exception of the H&H drive even the heaviest bullets too fast. With a notable exception of one guide who would test his clients prowess with the rifle he or she brought. He would put up a pie plate at 100 yards they would shoot at it for five rounds. If they could keep all five shots in the plate shooting from their hind legs he would guide em letting them shoot their own weapon. Otherwise he gave them one of several 308's he had with 200 grain bullets and told em have at it while he carried a .338 win mag. He's never lost a client or a bear yet.

 Here is the criteria most guides want to see. 1 a minimum of a 210 grain bullet with a SD of 280 minimum. Velocity's between 2500 minimum and 2900 fps very maximum a scope of top quality variable between 3-9 power or a straight 4 power scope. The client CAN use open sights if he limits the first shot range to 125-150 max  They don't typically like semiautos they prefer to see the client with a bolt or single shot, maybe a lever if it meets earlier criteria. Above all be able to shoot well with whatever caliber you choose

This is what I base a lot of choices on due to the fact that these men stake their life on the abilities of their rifles and their judgement alone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 11:59
Right there with you kick boxer one of each for me as well just think of all the loads you could develop

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 12:25
id be willing to be that most of the "data" compiled over those years didnt take into account that bullets have changed a ton in the last 20 yrs. i bet a majority of the failures you mention werent the fault of the caliber or speed, but the the makeup of the bullet. you can say all you want, but if you shoot a tough animal with a deer bullet your not going to like the end results. i wouldnt hesitate to shoot any bear on the planet with my .300wby and a properly constructed bullet.  i would take a 200gr nosler or swift a-frame and kill things with no worries or failures as long as i did my part.
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 12:33
 
 I'd say this guys byline says it all.
 
  Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 12:40
as far as i know the animals havent got tougher over the years, i do know that materials used to construct bullets and the processes to make them has, and they are tougher. if a 30-06 worked in 1906 on bear im pretty sure it would work today too. im all for the elmer keith approach, but at the same time i realize i could get by with a lot less.
They call me "Boots"
375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"

343 we will never forget

God Bless Chris Ledoux
"good ride cowboy"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 12:48
 
  Elmer Keith could've used your advice (doubt he would've taken it though).  He kept sticking with the heavier bullets even though newer (BETTER) designed lighter bullets gave the performance he wanted in a bullet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 15:18
Thats partly why I don't feel undergunned  when I am shooting a 250 grain premium bullet at 2746 fps and 4047 foot lbs of energy. Or 2575 fps with a 275 grain bullet for 4049 ft lbs.
Either load I have full confidence in for dangerous game. Just as I have full confidence in my 30-06's to kill any large game in the lower 48.Big Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rustic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 15:41
Originally posted by 300S&W 300S&W wrote:

 
 I'd say this guys byline says it all.
 
  Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.


One thing is for sure you will find more of those^ up there in bear country than any other.


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preacherman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 16:21
notice the other calibers as well. Thats why I am more comfortable with a .338 win. I know it's plenty. the only other calibers I use for hunting are the 06 and the 45-70, by the way the article I referred to said the 06 and the 7mm are useless STOPPING A CHARGE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 19:27
Was this thread about dangerous game calibers, general hunting calibers, or what exactly?
 
preacherman, my response on your "useless" comment was regarding "stopping big game," and not charges, attacks,  or anything else you didn't mention.
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 19:37
Originally posted by gulf1263 gulf1263 wrote:

...If it does not want to trample, gore, claw or eat you then the lighter calibers work fine.
A 30/06 with premium bullets or a 7mm. Mag. with premium bullets can kill a large animal under normal hunting conditions, however when you become the target your chances greatly increase with the .338 Win. Mag. and above...
Thanks
Art
I'm happy to see so many .30-06 aficionados here and while I think .30-06 is the bee's knees in so many ways, if I were to hunt in grizzly country, I'm not so sure I'd be hunting with as thin a bullet as a .338.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 20:18
Big SmileThats why I tried to clarify it Matt ...My fault entirely my apologies .  The other thing I absolutely LOVE about the .338 is that it is such an inherently accurate and  easy to load for cartridge. It's not unusual to see 1/2 inch - groups with hand loads and 1-1/2 groups with factory. I also happen to lke the 458 for that reason but I wouldn't use it off the bench or to hunt with because I can't shoot them to their accuracy potential.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 21:30
I really like a  .375 H&H back when I only had one rifle that was the one I had. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gulf1263 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/16/2012 at 23:16
The 30/06 with tough, modern bullets can take large animals like elk and moose or bear but when it comes to stopping a charge, it just is not in the same league as the larger bore magnums. The three hundred magnums with a tough, heavy bullet are a little better but not in the same league as a .338 Win. Mag.
Load a 275 grn. Swift A-Frame into .338 Win. Mag. and with proper bullet placement it will stop things right now, amazing penetration and power delivery at the closer ranges. The same goes for the .358 Norma Mag. and the .375 H&H Mag. with proper bullets.
These calibers allow someone in reasonable shape to get another shot off, sometimes even a third if necessary. This because in bear country you can have more than one animal charge.
Go to a larger and more powerful caliber and you will need to be in very good shape and in excellent practice.
Again, the lighter calibers with strong, modern bullets will work under usual conditions, just make sure that if you go after something that can hurt you just make sure that you have suitable back up.
Native hunters here in Alaska use the 5.56 to shoot everything but every once in a while someone gets stomped, maimed or eaten.
I preferred to err on the side of of caution.
Thanks
Art
Good day.
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