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223 deer load for 1 and 8 twist AR

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preacherman View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 08:34
you are a bit overloaded there according to hornady. For the 68 grain match the book says MAX 24.9 I would back it off 1/2 grain or so. For the75 grain tac it lists 23.5 max. This is data for the service rifle.
Two questions #1 are you loading commercial brass or military #2 are you shooting a bolt rifle or an AR15 variant such  as an M4 or a AR15A2 or some such designation/ model?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 10:01
Disclaimer right up front: Take anything I have to say with a grain of salt.
I'm just some guy out there and no kind of 'quotable' source/expert in anything to do with reloading, having made my share of mistakes to learn from (survive,) and one of them is detailed in this linked thread: http://www.opticstalk.com/topic31903.html
I've no experience with that 70 gr. Barnes bullet (not that it matters, because any loads would have been developed in my rifle and not your rifle.)


Your listed load is well above minimum pressure...  but read on...
With that length of bullet, it would be difficult to compress too much Varget into a case to go over maximum pressure and remain under magazine length.

It likely isn't a critical factor in this instance, but what cases/primers are you using?
As mentioned earlier in thread, mil- spec 5.56 chamber pressure is greater than .223 pressure, so .223 data would give a safety cushion. You have an AR, but I didn't see you list your chamber type.
No published load data for that combo bullet/powder leads us to detective work and interpolation of data:
Barnes lists 25.5 gr Varget as max load for .223 and 62 gr. TSX. 5.56 max isn't given, but would probably be  ~1.5 gr higher, with less for 70 gr bullet, of course.
Sierra lists Varget 26.1 gr. Max for a .223 load and their 69 gr bullet- meaning again, 5.56 load would use more powder.
Ramshot data shows that Sierra 69gr develops higher pressure than the Barnes 70 gr. with both Tac and X-Terminator powders, so the Sierra appears to have the higher coefficient of friction, therefore load data for Sierra 69 gr should work.
Hodgdon lists max Varget load of 26.gr compressed for the Sierra 69 gr - which closely agrees with Sierra-  and Hodgdon gives max pressure at 50,200psi, which is well below max pressure for both .223 and 5.56.
Hodgdon also lists a max Varget load of 26(c) gr with the Speer 70 grain at even less pressure of 48,400 psi.

While interpolating load data could get a guy in trouble right quick, with Varget's characteristics and the close agreement of the available data of the relatively safe pressure for that weight of Varget/bullet, looks like your load is safely below max pressure for .223 with a variety of primers and cases as used by the data sources listed.
You should be good to go.

If you really want to be sure, you could call Barnes and/or Hodgdon and ask them...
or, if you'd send me the rest of that box of Barnes, load testing is free.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 11:20
Just looked in my Lyman 49th and Lee 2nd editions, (sorry for not thinking of this before) and the data in both hand loading manuals agrees with what has been said... Lee also lists a 70 gr bullet (type unknown) with a heavier charge of Varget than you are using, which produces 51Kpsi. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 11:35
If memory serves the service rifle and military brass calls for lighter loads than the commercial 223 bolt action rifles at least according to Hornadys 7th edition loading manual. Call me over cautious but I like my eyes where they are LOLBig Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 13:25
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

If memory serves the service rifle and military brass calls for lighter loads than the commercial 223 bolt action rifles at least according to Hornadys 7th edition loading manual. Call me over cautious but I like my eyes where they are LOLBig Smile
Well, it's a bit complicated...  just remember that .223 has lower max pressure limits than 5.56.

1) There is very little difference in case capacity between various lots of mil- spec and civilian brass, but small differences do exist, just as there are differences between two cases from the same mfg. lot.  This is generally of minor concern in load development, regardless of scuttlebutt.

In the real world, more people are concerned about getting a 'lot' of brass with case- heads too thin/soft which decreases the number of times that brass can be reloaded. Many shooters don't even bother to sort brass with different headstamps, since there is so little difference between varieties.
However, there are large differences in case capacity between military and civilian brass in other calibers, such as .308/7.62 NATO and .30-06. One definitely needs to reduce powder charges in those instances if using mil- spec brass, or pressure problems can/will occur.

2) .223 (SAAMI spec) chambers have shorter leades/throats than 5.56 NATO and are in some ways dimensionally smaller than 5.56, since the NATO service rifles are designed to function in adverse conditions with high- performance (read: high- pressure) military ammo. 
5.56 NATO ammunition is loaded to higher pressure specs than .223, therefore using .223 data gives one a margin of safety. .223 SAAAMI max pressure is 55, 000psi and 5.56 NATO spec max pressure is 62,366 psi

3) Bolt action rifles, due to their inherent strength, are generally considered strong enough to use 5.56 NATO loads. Semi- auto rifles with 5.56 MILSPEC/NATO chambers and several variant chamber designs, such as the Wylde chamber, are rated to use 5.56 NATO spec ammo. Some load data from some mfg.s gives both .223 and 5.56 data and specifies (usually) that 5.56 data is to be used only with service- type rifles with NATO or equivalent chambers and/or bolt action rifles.
One might assume that some rifles are not rated beyond SAAMI specs.

Here's a quote from RAMSHOT data concerning 5.56 loads:
<62,350 psi Application: Bolt Action Rifles and Semi Auto Weapons rated for the latest NATO/MIL ammunition.

One can not assume that commercially published load data which does not specify whether it meets .223 SAAMI or 5.56 NATO specifications is loaded to SAAMI specs, but that is usually the case... they publish .223 spec loads for obvious reasons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 13:30
I guess I must be wrong then. I was just going "by the book" 7th edition75 grain bullet 2700 fps with a max load of RL15 24.1 grains.

Varget is 23.3 max for 2600, (I learn something new every day)Cool
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 13:43
I use win brass. With 75 hornadys i use 24.5 varget. No pressure signs excellent accuracy. With 69 grain i ise 25 varget in lake city brass also excellent accuracy.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/18/2012 at 14:07
I have found the 75;s best. They have much more impact
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jselsor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2012 at 10:00
Alan,
 Thanks for your research my friend!
My rifle is a wide chamber Rock River. It can handle the hotter 5.56 loads.  After a little more research and reading your comments. I am confident that this is a safe load and shouldnt be to hard on my brass. In ref to your question I am using

Hornady once fired brass
BR primers

I just ordered 500 68 grain BTHP match and 500 60 gr VMAX. I plan to develope a fine tuned load with both of these two bullets. Since my rifle has the 16 inch 1/8 twist heavy barrel I figured these would be the ideal projectile. They are also close in weight to the 70grain barnes so they should shoot fairly close come deer season.  I also ordered 1K of hornady brass. I am fortunate to have an uncle that is a sales rep for hornady Smile 

Once again thanks for a educated and accurate responses
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jselsor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2012 at 10:02
I thought about 75's however with a 16 inch barrel I was worried they wouldnt perform as well. Meaning I wasnt sure they would have time to stabilize 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jselsor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2012 at 10:05
This forum is awesome! A guy can save himself some time and money by tapping into you all's knowledge and experience 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2012 at 10:50
U are goimg to use match bullets for deer hunting? The match bullets and vmax are very thin jacketed not made to stay together and penetrate. I would reconsider the ise of either for deer.

Also i shoot the 75s in 16 barrels and they stabalize just fine. I can shoot under half inch at 100 yards and have shot around 4 inch at 600 yards. Great bullets
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jselsor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/19/2012 at 11:40
NO
I plan to deer hunt with the 70 gr barnes txs however they are way to costly to plink with so I plan to use 60 gr vmax and 68gr bthp for target, yotes, varmints, ext........ 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/20/2012 at 09:46
Originally posted by jselsor jselsor wrote:

NO
I plan to deer hunt with the 70 gr barnes txs however they are way to costly to plink with so I plan to use 60 gr vmax and 68gr bthp for target, yotes, varmints, ext........ 


Keep your eyes peeled as they can be found on sale, at times... same for others, too.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote midwestoffroad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/20/2012 at 21:40
I havent worked up any loads yet but have bought some 70g speed spitzer winchester 64g power point bullets and plan on using varget or TAC.   my AR-10 does not like varget. but IMR powders and TAC worked well.
and I wouldnt use vmax either on deer but 60g vmax 25 g varget works wornerfullu in my 1-8 twists
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote midwestoffroad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/20/2012 at 21:42
speer  spitzers sorry
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Alan Robertson Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2012 at 07:35
Originally posted by midwestoffroad midwestoffroad wrote:

I havent worked up any loads yet but have bought some 70g speed spitzer winchester 64g power point bullets and plan on using varget or TAC.   my AR-10 does not like varget. but IMR powders and TAC worked well.
and I wouldnt use vmax either on deer but 60g vmax 25 g varget works wornerfullu in my 1-8 twists
There have been many reports online of successful hunts using those bullets. Please let us know how it goes with your load accuracy and your success afield.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jjrgr21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2012 at 08:39
24.4gr/varget for 75gr hdy @2725 20" 1:8/// 2500 16" 1:9

25gr/varget for 68gr hdy@ 2900 20" 1:8//// 2650 16" 1:9

they are both wicked accurate in both guns, the 68/16 and 75/20 being the best
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jselsor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/22/2012 at 09:47
Originally posted by jjrgr21 jjrgr21 wrote:

24.4gr/varget for 75gr hdy @2725 20" 1:8/// 2500 16" 1:9

25gr/varget for 68gr hdy@ 2900 20" 1:8//// 2650 16" 1:9

they are both wicked accurate in both guns, the 68/16 and 75/20 being the best
 
I just loaded a bunch of 68's at 24.5,25,and 25.9 (was gonna load 26gr but my powder measure really liked 25.9 so I just went with it.....lol
I am happy to see you had great results out of a 16 inch 1/8 with those 68's. I was begining to think I should have ordered 75's.
What brass and primer?
 I had a hell of a time the other day with federal primers not wanting to seat. They were tighter then dicks hat band! The BR 4 seated perfectly. ????
I cant wait to try my loads I worked up but still havent scoped my rig yet. I think I have settled on a sitron S1 3-9x40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jselsor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October/29/2012 at 16:40
Well Gents
I got my RR 1/8 twist 16 inch upper sporting a burris 2-7 E1 ret shooting these 70grn barnes bullets pretty well. I loaded all 50 at 25 grains of varget. This is a consistent 3/4 inch load. My rifle doesnt like them nearly as well as the 60grn VMAX but none the less they are plenty accurate for my intended use. Our rifle season here in Mo starts on Nov 10. I cant wait to put them to the test. I have made it my goal to take pictures of bullet performance to share with you all. So stand bye boys and doe's bewareBig Grin

On another note here are some pet loads I worked up that my rifle loves an figured I would share them.

60grn Vmax, 26grn varget, fed match primers
68grn hornady bthp 25.5 varget, fed match primers
Both hot loads I know but very happy with both hornady and RR arms.
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