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Talked with 2 African PHs about lion hunting

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tahqua View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/07/2012 at 21:02
I have never heard that gulf. The .375 H&H works plain and simple. Mine works just fine on big critters.
Doug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gulf1263 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 00:50
IMHO the .375 H&H Mag. was the best solution, you could buy a reliable Winchester M 70, reasonable weight, at a very affordable price and get ammo.
The performance was superior to the 9.3x62 and very soon it was the most used caliber in Africa, with ammo available every where.
Once ammo was no longer made for the bigger British doubles and magazine rifles the replacement by a affordable magazine rifle was inevitable and Winchester's release of the .458 Win. Mag. was lucky timing on their part.
Fresh ammo worked and the M 70 was reliable.
The design of the .458 Win. Mag. really did not do well in the scalding temperatures of Africa because of raised pressures and powder compaction as the ammo aged, poor quality control later on and poor bullets did not help matters any but there was no alternative until the .458 Lott came on the scene.
Many game departments continued using the .404 Jeffery as long as they could get ammo, eventually, as the the rifles wore out and ammo got expensive they were replaced by the .375 H&H Mag. or the .458 Win. Mag.
With the availability of the .458 Lott a truly reliable magazine rifle is available that does not have to have the ammo babied.
Even a plain "working" double is expensive compared to a bolt gun and people had to buy what suited their economic circumstances.
Since ammo is available again for many of the large bore African calibers many PH's are once again using large bore magazines and doubles.
I have been lucky to talk to quite a few hunters and PH's over the last few years to try to get a better picture of the overall situation.
Again I have not been to Africa and do not want to start a flame war, the above is my considered opinion.
If anyone has experience or information I would be happy to see it here, we can all learn from each other...I learn from others and try to pass that learning on.
Art





Good day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 01:20
Be very careful when booking a South African lion hunt. There are very few free roaming lions available to hunt, so mostly they are put and take hunts.
Lion breeding is big business in South Africa.
Our Govt has stepped in with some control measures regarding the minimum camp size, time the put animal has to be placed before hunting etc etc.
But lots of crap goes on.
Not my cup of tea at all I,m afraid.
 
Caliber.. the bigger the better, funny stuff happens with animals that have bigger teeth and claws then you have.
 
But yes, a 300Win Mag...375H&H etc will all put them down with that old one correctly placed shot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 15:26
 I live where we see grizzly regularly. When I used killer (an 03A4 WWII sniper rifle) I felt a bit intimidated by those big bastards. When I ran  into an old sniper buddy who was sold on the 338 win mag. In his words the 338 is similar to a 375HH with the trajectory of an o6 and around 30lbs of recoil
on the dangerous end of the weapon is is 3900-4300 ftlbs of energy. He has killed Kodiak bears and grizzly's in Alaska at point blank to 457 yrds confirmed by a laser rangefinder. For me that's plenty for any critter in the USA as well as most of Africa.
 
mine is as follows. custem built on an A3 springfield action with a Timney trigger 15 OZ trigger pull, no take up or over-travel rings and bases by Leupold. A 4-12 Redfield revenge hunter reticle  and a  beautiful stock. Everything gone through and just like new. Best groups so far .680 I wouldn't feel underguned against a lion with a 250/275 grain bullet. I would have to pray to hit him solid in the lungs and heart ir in his noggin
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Son of Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 17:17
I'm sure a 338 would work fine on lions....except the 375 is the legal minimum for them just about everywhere. 
 
I wouldn't try a 338 on a buffalo or a rhino or an elephant.  But I'm sure it's been done.  Eleanor O'Connor shot an elephant in 1959 with a 30-06.  I know a guy who shot a leopard with a 22!!  I saw the hide. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rustic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 18:12
We have nothing over here in North America that could be even considered in the same class as African "dangerous game" after seeing how much lead the big 5 has taken at times to knock down.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 18:46
You don't consider a griz or a kodiak or a polar bear dangerous game?????
 Aww well It's just my opinion and I ain't here to start arguments thats for sure so I will agree to respectfully disagree. IMO it's the first critical shot that matters. I have seen black bears in the 350lb range absorb so much lead that I was totally shocked he charged 4 of us and we were all slinging lead My shot from a 45-70 at about 20 feet finally took him down. He was hit 4 times in a lethal area  the other three should by all rights have slowed him down anyway. Bears are the most dangerous critters in the woods. You never know what they will do and once the adrenalin is flowing watch out.

If I may ask where was the lion hit initially?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rustic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 19:09
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

You don't consider a griz or a kodiak or a polar bear dangerous game?????
 Aww well It's just my opinion and I ain't here to start arguments thats for sure so I will agree to respectfully disagree. IMO it's the first critical shot that matters. I have seen black bears in the 350lb range absorb so much lead that I was totally shocked he charged 4 of us and we were all slinging lead My shot from a 45-70 at about 20 feet finally took him down. He was hit 4 times in a lethal area  the other three should by all rights have slowed him down anyway. Bears are the most dangerous critters in the woods. You never know what they will do and once the adrenalin is flowing watch out.

If I may ask where was the lion hit initially?

Semper Fi


There is no doubt all bears are dangerous game but, just not in the same league as thick skinned African dangerous game. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 19:19
Lions aren't thick skinned. But Larry Kelly's mounts at the Handgun Hunters Museum makes me think that the jaws go to the lion and the claws go to the bear. Either way they both munch and claw.
He had outfitter dinners years back at his MagnaPort shop where the museum is. This was the night before the Detroit SCI convention would start. Some of the African outfitters would show up with some gruesome shots of lion kills on humans. It really didn't help with the fine catered food. Between various mounts and viewing at the zoo, I would want a lot of gun for lion.
Doug
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Son of Ed Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 20:02
I would place the Big Bears and Lions in the Same Category.....375 MINIMUM.  ( I don't care what they did back in the Fifties.....I'll take a 375!! ) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 20:33
Well IMO I have to be ready I am purely a meat hunter, but so are bears and wolves if the game is already down a griz will rarely pass up a free meal. So here is my criteria for a "big weapon"
FIRST.  Can I place my shot with it with precision. Is it accurate enough to do so.
SECOND. Does it carry a  heavy enough bullet/velocity for the critter I am shooting? IE you CAN shoot an elk with a 223 but does it carry enough ooph? NOPE
THIRD. What range will I be shooting and will it have sufficient energy to  make a clean one shot one kill
FOURTH and last does it have so much recoil that I make a stitching trip to the doc to place my eyeballs back in my head and sew said head back together
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 20:44
Want to get an idea how precise the shot has to be and how much time you have to make it buy an air soft gun and go after the neighborhood cats.   Once the first shot goes off animals dont just hang around waiting for you to reload.  While most animals run away --- preditors often attack instead and it doesnt take much time to close ground as those videos show.  Whatever you take you better be good with it and it better come on target quickly.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tip69 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 22:42
I'm pretty sure shooting a Lion or any other dangerous game whilst the animal is charging would be no problem with a big bore/big gun like a .416.  But I can't imagine sighting the damn thing in!  I think I'll stick to coyotes and my .204!  lol
take em!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rustic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 22:52
Yep. Sighting in those big rigs without a lead sled is a real good way to develop an incurable flinch.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote preacherman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/08/2012 at 23:06
Well I guess resident redneck, thats my point, I have fired everything up to a 460 wtby. I didn't say I shot them well, the second shot option is why I chose a 338 over a 375. I can shoot a 338 better all around and it has the BIG advantage in range, trajectory, and downrange power!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2012 at 07:49
Yall can all talk about what yall take and all but me, I'm taking Dan!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lucytuma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2012 at 07:55
I really can't tell the difference in recoil with my 338 and 375, they seem about the same to me? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2012 at 10:05
Coffee
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 300S&W Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2012 at 10:15
 
   Coffee  REALLY.  Maybe we'll learn something,Mike.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tahqua Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: February/09/2012 at 10:20
Originally posted by preacherman preacherman wrote:

Well I guess resident redneck, thats my point, I have fired everything up to a 460 wtby. I didn't say I shot them well, the second shot option is why I chose a 338 over a 375. I can shoot a 338 better all around and it has the BIG advantage in range, trajectory, and downrange power!
 
I don't think so. Come up with whatever ballistics tables there are and I don't think this will wash. Compare the lightest in each or the heaviest in each to be fair.
Doug
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