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Viper HS "hunting" scopes: a huge disappointment

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WestOfPecos View Drop Down
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    Posted: January/07/2011 at 11:07
I just called Vortex to get some direct information and came out extraordinarily disappointed. I find the new Viper HS "hunting" line to be really a line of tactical scopes, adapted for hunting, but not suited to it.

I have always found the Vortex Viper line to be the sweet spot for me. I did not find the lower level lines (Crossfire, Diamondback) good enough, and the Razors were a little too expensive for my "regular" scope purchases. I really liked the Viper scopes because they had good optical qualities, repeatable mechanicals that did not lose zero, and because they were light and compact - an essential attribute in a hunting rifle if you are going to walk & stalk. They were a perfect combination in the sweet spot for me, and I own many of them.

As we all know, Vortex is in the process of obsoleting their 1" line of Viper scopes, and is replacing them in the line-up by the Viper HS scopes. The HS scopes come in the same sizes as the PST scopes, but with hunting turrets. We are all eagerly awaiting the PST scopes - but they are heavy compared to the old style Vipers. That is fine for a tactical scope - but not for a hunting scope.

How heavy? The 1-4x24 is very compact at 9.7" but heavy - 16 oz, more than most of my hunting scopes even with high magnifications.  The next model up is a 2.5-10x42, still fairly compact at 12", but weighing 18.4 oz. The next one up is the 4-16x44, and its weight is unknown so far, but I am sure that it will be higher than 18.4 oz. The next model up, 4-16x50, has a 50mm bell, very cumbersome in the field, a size of 13.7" and a weight of 22 oz.

For me, unless it is to hunt hogs at night, I do not use 50mm bells on my hunting rifles (too bulky to walk around with), meaning that I have 3 choices for hunting scopes in the new Viper "hunting" line. These choices are both very heavy compared to pretty much all my hunting scopes. As a comparison, looking at a few of my scopes:
  • Kahles 2-7x36 ->11.9 oz
  • Kahles 3-9x42 ->14.1 oz
  • Leupold VX-II 3-9x33 Ultralight ->11 oz
  • Leupold VX3 2.5-8x36 ->11.5 oz
  • Minox ZA5 3-15x42 ->13.7 oz
  • Nikon Monarch 2.5-8x28 Scout ->10.9 oz
  • Vortex Viper 2-7x32 ->14 oz
  • Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 ->15 oz (I find it heavy and bulky, although with excellent glass
  • Just to compare to a large fixed mag: Sightron SIIB 24x44 ->15.6 oz for 24x!
The new Vortex HS line brings in tactical format and, I am sure, excellent quality (I am a Vortex fan based on my many Vortex scopes), but, imho, it does not provide choice and features that are supportive of walking hunters.

I am planning on loading up on the obsoleted 1" line models (particularly the sweet 2-7x32). While I definitely plan on purchasing some PSTs for target shooting, I figure that the bulk of my new hunting scope purchases in the next couple of years will probably be Minox ZA5, Nikon Monarch, Leupold VX3 and Sightron SII Big Sky. I was hoping for an exciting new hunting line from Vortex in 2011, but I am very disappointed.


Edited by WestOfPecos - January/07/2011 at 14:20
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2011 at 11:13
I'd hold off casting judgement until you see all that they have planned.  Its still to early to say there is "disappointment". 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote huntingaddict Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2011 at 12:49
They told me yesterday that several of the older configurations were going to come back because of high demand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Midwest_Hunter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2011 at 13:30
Yeah I would say you are jumping the gun a little.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote qball Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2011 at 14:42
I think price might be the factor here and not weight (at least in my case).  My heavy barrel savage + the viper + harris bipod make a pretty heavy outfit...but then again, I'm not going to be lugging it around on my shoulder.  A couple more ounces of scope weight would make little difference to me...but a couple hundred bucks might.  That said, maybe the HS is tilted too much to the tactical side???  I hope Vortex keeps up with the nice selection of mid price range high quality stuff they have been putting out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grimreaper21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2011 at 15:58
in all fairness, if half a pound is a huge deal breaker.. then i really have no other rational explanation to counter your post with.  if you've made up your mind that half a pound is of the upmost importance then, i wish you all the best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2011 at 17:57
I tend to set up my shots around 200 yds but I often see deer closer and further away. With a 50 cal musket there is a huge drop in trajectory and having a scope that I can dial in correction with is a welcome addition to their line.  The long range version is similar to tactical versions but without illumination and with a different hunting type reticle and the knobs are designed to be large enough to dial in correction without being huge tactical knobs.  Meanwhile back at the ranch we are getting some huge bargains on the ones that they are discontinueing which has allowed some of us to try them out and develope a taste for more Vortex products.  They will bring back the products that people want.  But there has been a lack of scopes that were both good and affordable in the 4-16 power range so I for one am glad to see these.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stickbow46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2011 at 19:16
WOP that's a nice stable of hunting scopes you own!I don't think a few ounces is going to be a deal braker esspecially considering you will be getting a 30mm tube which will give you a little more flexability in both windage & elevation.
 
Myself I'm hoping they will come out with an illumination option.As you said you are a Vortex fan so give them the benefit of doubt & be patient.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/07/2011 at 20:53
These scopes have EXACTLY the features I am looking for in a hunting scope on my heavy/long range hunting rig, and the reticle matches the turrets, in that the Vortex BDC is calibrated in MOA.  Illumination is something I did not want in my hunting scope.

I am stoked about these.

A lightweight "tweener" would be a fine addition to the line, however.
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WYcoyote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2011 at 10:07
The 2-7x32 Viper @ 14oz is sweet but the 3-9x40 Conquest @ 15 oz  is heavy?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2011 at 10:25
Originally posted by WYcoyote WYcoyote wrote:

The 2-7x32 Viper @ 14oz is sweet but the 3-9x40 Conquest @ 15 oz  is heavy?

kinda what i was thinking, whats 1 ounce???Loco
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote BigGameBalls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2011 at 10:26
Originally posted by grimreaper21 grimreaper21 wrote:

in all fairness, if half a pound is a huge deal breaker.. then i really have no other rational explanation to counter your post with.  if you've made up your mind that half a pound is of the upmost importance then, i wish you all the best.
Half a pound isn't a lot? Go grab 8 oz of lead fishing weights and tell me 1/2 a lb isn't a  big deal to the overall weight and balance of a gun.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WestOfPecos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2011 at 12:09
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

Originally posted by WYcoyote WYcoyote wrote:

The 2-7x32 Viper @ 14oz is sweet but the 3-9x40 Conquest @ 15 oz  is heavy?

kinda what i was thinking, whats 1 ounce???Loco

Pyro, I thought that I would not have to spell things out for you. But since you want the detail, here goes.

There is a big difference between the two. The Viper is extremely compact at 11.3", while the Conquest is very long at 13.5". The Conquest is only slightly heavier at 15 oz vs 14 oz for the Viper. But the Viper's much shorter length and the way the weight is distributed make the Viper comfortable to add to my stalking rifles, and keeps them well balanced, while the Conquest changes their balance in a very uncomfortable way.

This is actually true on all my rifles, from the lightest to the heaviest, although, obviously, less noticeable on the heavier rifles. I own a pretty good sample of rifles, including most big brands except for Remington and Tikka. So I believe that my generalization for the scopes that I own is pretty accurate as far as they regard myself and the friends and family I hunt with.

Weight and balance are particularly critical for stalking rifles. We typically cover 12 to 15 miles, often quite a bit more, in a hunting day. If you are out for several days camping in the bush the impact is cumulative:-) For most hunters, hunting from stands or staying a few hundred yards from a road are the norm. But, to me, real hunting involves being as far in the wild as I can:-)

If you are a target shooter or a stand hunter - i.e. part of the majority of firearms owners,- you never have to handle your rifle for long periods of time. So balance and weight are not critical. But, if you have to carry your rifle for 14 hours in a day, every day in a week, it will quickly become very important to you! I have no problems putting a PST on a rifle for target shooting, or on a heavy varminter. But putting one on a regular hunting rifle is very different.

I am very careful about what opinions I give out. I try to make sure that mine are always backed by data that I have developed, or experiences that I have had myself: I do not use internet rumors in my posts. I am also respectful of other people's opinions - we can all have different takes on the same facts. At the same time, quite frankly, only somebody who has never stalked game would say, as some have mentioned above, that, everything else being equal, an 18 oz scope (the weight of the mid-line HS) is as good as a 12 oz one (average weight for my scopes)... The statement is either very ignorant or very foolish.

 A scope's weight and its balance, to me, and I believe to any discerning stalking hunter, are as important as its glass quality, the repeatability of its mechanicals, or the criticality of its eyebox. And, in this domain, despite all the forum's hype, the Conquest, despite its very good glass, does not score well. I have listed above some of the scopes that I have right now, and for which I can provide direct, first hand, comparative experience. I believe that if people used their own experience and data more often, rather than repeating other people's posts like sheep or lemming,  there would be less hype and more reality in gear evaluations:-)




Edited by WestOfPecos - January/08/2011 at 12:18
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Originally posted by BigGameBalls BigGameBalls wrote:

Originally posted by grimreaper21 grimreaper21 wrote:

in all fairness, if half a pound is a huge deal breaker.. then i really have no other rational explanation to counter your post with.  if you've made up your mind that half a pound is of the upmost importance then, i wish you all the best.
Half a pound isn't a lot? Go grab 8 oz of lead fishing weights and tell me 1/2 a lb isn't a  big deal to the overall weight and balance of a gun.
I don't know about everyone else but my body has muscles, that are pretty helpful in counteracting weight.  Go curl 40 pounds an arm 100 times and eventually, you wont notice a difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WestOfPecos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2011 at 12:33
Originally posted by stickbow46 stickbow46 wrote:

WOP that's a nice stable of hunting scopes you own!I don't think a few ounces is going to be a deal braker esspecially considering you will be getting a 30mm tube which will give you a little more flexability in both windage & elevation.
 
Myself I'm hoping they will come out with an illumination option.As you said you are a Vortex fan so give them the benefit of doubt & be patient.

I definitely agree that the extra flexibility is good - you never have enough adjustments in elevation:-) Although I am not a good enough shooter to be able to use windage much... But it is not a big enough thing for me to want to give up 6 oz.  I mount all my rifles with 15 moa mounts, just so that I can get a little bit extra when I need it:-)

The PST line does come with illumination. Since they come with zero stop, they might be usable in the field. I have sometimes used small strips of black electrical tape to use target turrets in the brush. Unfortunately, the 4-16x44, which is the new Viper format that I am most attracted to, does not have an equivalent in the PST line, which goes straight to a 50mm bell - it is only found in the HS line.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2011 at 12:41
Michel,

I have a Remington Model 7 7-08 that is my backpack hunting rifle.  I used it this season with a Conquest 3-9X40.  I just swapped the Conquest for my Viper 2-7X32.  I prefer how the Viper looks on the compact model 7.  After reading your post, I just pulled out my model 7 and swapped the scopes, holding the rifle and testing for weight and balance.  I honestly could not tell a difference, whatsoever, in having the two scopes on the rifle.  Holding the two scopes in hand, it was hard to feel the 1 ounce difference.  I don't understand how the conquest would change the balance in such an "uncomfortable" way.

The Conquest is longer, and doesn't look as trim as the Viper, but it does allow for more mounting latitude.

I understand what you are saying about keeping your weights down for backpacking, and I am always looking for ways to shave my pack weight, but I have found that certain performance advantages are worth a few extra ounces.  I could make do with a 3 lb. REI or Gregory backpack, but the features of my hunt-specific 6 lb Eberlestock are well worth the extra 3 lbs.  For Heaven's sake, I packed my Razor 85HD into some of the craziest terrain in the Lower 48 this year, but it saved me a lot of scrambling to get a closer look.

The new Viper HS series is just the ticket for the "long range" hunting rifles that are so popular now.  I will be putting one on a Remington Sendero, mainly for hunting elk from horseback.

While, like you, my favorite type of hunting involves a backpack and many rugged miles of backcountry, "real" hunting is simply the ethical pursuit of game animals, and passing on the traditions, regardless of method.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WestOfPecos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2011 at 13:06
Hey Matt-

you did mention in some posts a while back that you are packing your large format spotting scope - I was quite impressed. I am actually hesitating right now between a 50, a 60, a 62 (Minox) and a 65 to go backpacking with as well. I am not ready to schlep an 85mm - maybe I am older:-)

It is interesting that you actually made that experiment with your Remington 7 - I don't have any Remingtons, as mentioned above - not by religion or taste, just has not happened so far (although the 7mm-08 is my favorite caliber for brush hunting here in WI, my fave is a M77RSI stainless in 7mm-08, on which I typically mount a Kahles 2-7). But I have tried the same substitution among others, on several Win 70, a Browning BLR, several Ruger M77 Hawkeye and M77RSI of different calibers, Sako 85, and CZ. The CZ had the least difference. In fact, of all my shorter mag scopes, the Conquest is the one I like least for balance/ weight along. I also tried hunting with my SS 3-9x40 FFP (19 oz, 13.5") but that one did not cut it when I could pick another instead. My favorite backpack rifle is a Win 70 Stainless Featherweight with a lightweight stock, on which the difference, to me, is very significant. Although I now typically use the Minox ZA5 3-15x42 on it - it's my favorite combo, light and very versatile, usable at up to roughly 500-600 yards if I had or wanted to.

As you mention, the PST/HS, imho, are well matched to heavy long range rifles, and I think it would pair perfectly with a Sendero, particularly if you have a horse to carry it for you:-)  I also agree with you that a few extra ounces sometimes bring in significant value - for instance, I typically use a 15 moa picatinny mount on all my rifles, which costs me 2-3 ounces compared to a lighter 2-piece mount. It gives me extra elevation and the full ability to mount any scope on any rifle, which I sub often.

At this time, though, I do not believe that I am getting enough back for the extra 6-8 oz of the mid line HS scopes ( I am thinking 4-16x44 as I write in terms of weight, thinking that the elevation advantage of a 30mm tube is only worth it if you are going to go longer range) for a stalking rifle. Range - yes. Long range heavy rifle - yes. Heavy varminter - yes. Stand hunting - yes. Backpack or stalking rifle, which is what I do - no.

Of course this is my own opinion for what works for me:-) I'd love to do that elk hunt on horseback you talked about - it sounds like great fun, you'll have to share some of your stories there!


Edited by WestOfPecos - January/08/2011 at 13:23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bitterroot Bulls Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2011 at 14:49
Originally posted by WestOfPecos WestOfPecos wrote:


 I'd love to do that elk hunt on horseback you talked about - it sounds like great fun, you'll have to share some of your stories there!


Hunting elk on horseback, during the late season/migration is the absolute pinnacle of western hunting.  Put it on your bucket list.  I think I may share a story or two here on the OT about elk hunting.

Don't write off Vortex yet, they seem to have stuff in the works all the time.  Maybe there is something to suit your needs coming as well.
-Matt
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grimreaper21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2011 at 15:04
Originally posted by WestOfPecos WestOfPecos wrote:


I am very careful about what opinions I give out. I try to make sure that mine are always backed by data that I have developed, or experiences that I have had myself: I do not use internet rumors in my posts.
Then with all due respect, perhaps you should have waited to hold one of the new HS scopes in your hand before coming on here, a very popular riflescope forum seen by thousands, and making a blanket statement like "Viper HS scopes a huge disappointment".  If i was a vortex employee i'd want your head Whacko

Edited by grimreaper21 - January/08/2011 at 15:05
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WYcoyote Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January/08/2011 at 15:36
Pecos,
Forgive me for doubting your opinion a little, because I do not have a 3-15x42 Minox to put side by side with my 3-9x40 Conquest to make a comparison.
I am just wondering how the Conquest can be so unacceptable in weight and bulk and the Minox is light and handy enough to earn a spot on your favorite lightweight carry rifle.
The difference (from SWFA scope specs) in weight is .6 oz and .71" in length. The objective OD must be fairly comparable since the Minox is 2mm bigger in diameter.
Admittedly the Minox is a very desirable scope with it's power range and relative size but I just can't see why you dislike it so much when the differences are so small.
If it's that dramatic of a difference do I need to sell my Conquest in favor of the Minox?
 
 
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