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BeltFed
Optics Retard Joined: February/12/2008 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 22284 |
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Lot of good points have been made here. I've stayed out of this discussion for the most part, partly because I work in this field, and partly because we don't have these scanners in our port YET.
Couple of observations I'd like to make: There has not been a single terrorist caught by TSA since 9-11-01 (does not include discouraged), there has not been a single attack from a flight originating in the U.S., passengers that fail the metal detector, or are selected for screening were subject to pat downs and wanding by hand held metal detectors already, profilling passengers is forbidden (one technique the Israelies use), a lot of money was spent developing the scanners.
I could say more, but I'm not in the novel writing mood now.
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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
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scooter65
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: December/29/2006 Location: mi Status: Offline Points: 3567 |
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BeltFed
Optics Retard Joined: February/12/2008 Location: Ky Status: Offline Points: 22284 |
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I don't watch the Communist News Network. Besides it would be much more fun to watch it in person.
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Life's concerns should be about the 120lb pack your trying to get to the top of the mountain, and not the rock in your boot.
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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We need to learn from the Israelis, who aren't encumbered by ridiculous, crippling political correctness. They profile the hell out of people, while at the same time not violating the basic rights of the innocent and the sensibilities of everyone with common sense, AND keeping wait times to a minimum. In addition to the levels of security checks at the airports, they have armed air marshals on their flights. They have no problems with terrorism on their flights despite being in closer proximity to terrorism every day of their lives than anywhere else on the planet. Basically, we just need to stop being a bunch of pu$$ies and put our security efforts where common sense dictates it should be used. But first, we have to tell the ACLU and whatever other whiny hand-wringing groups scream the loudest to kiss our collective @sses and quit worrying about hurting people's feelings. It's a very narrowly defined group of cretins who are committing 95%+ of all terrorist acts, and girl scouts named Brittany ain't among that group.
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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Average Joe
Optics Master Joined: April/24/2008 Status: Offline Points: 2178 |
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The biggest security hole at the airports is your luggage, they can lose your luggage never to be seen again.Then there is theft from you luggage , if they can steal at the airport and get it out they can get stuff in.
What's going to happen when a guy gets a woody while being patted down?
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I'm classic shag nasty type.
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budperm
Optics Retard show me your sheep!! Joined: January/01/2009 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31710 |
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I didn't tell anyone.....honest!!
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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson |
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budperm
Optics Retard show me your sheep!! Joined: January/01/2009 Location: Pennsylvania Status: Offline Points: 31710 |
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That reminds me of a incident back in High school were a Howard County LEO pulled a car load of us over for erratic driving. We were carrying on inside the car after a football game. We weren't drunk or high just a touch rowdy.
The LEO made us all get out of the car. He smelled everyones breath and sniffed the car all the time acting the badass. The 5 of us were all looking at each other and thinking the same thing..... A-hole!!!!
About this time the LEO notices the log in the tight jeans of our driver Kevin's pants.
Kevin was tall scrawny and hung like a mule. The LEO thought Kevin had a rolled up bag of pot stuffed down the front of his pants. He demanded Kevin pull it out. When kevin said no way the LEO grabbed it and squeezed hard! Kevin yelped in a little girl voice and the LEO's eyes got big and he jerked his hand back... That was it, the rest of us lost it and burst out laughing.
The Leo, highly embrassed threated to arrest us after kicking our asses. We had had enough by this time and John stepped forward and told the LEO he had better leave or call his watch commander. John then named the watch commander on duty that shift (his dad), just tell him you have J.R. The LEO turned a little white, spoke into his portable radio. Turned a little whiter but still
acting like a jerk and threating us. We really weren't misbehaving but we where starting to really get fed up with this guys behavior. About 5 minutes later John's dad shows up and pulls John aside and talks to him. John and his dad come back to the car and his dad says high to all of us by name. The LEO was pretty white by now and strangely. Johns dad pulled him aside for a few minutes then stood watching as the jerk came back handed Kevin's license back formally apologized for grabbing him and told us we could all go. Boy was that jerks face RED! Knowing John's dad we all kept our mouths shut piled into the car and left before bursting into laughter!
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"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history when everybody stands around reloading".
--Thomas Jefferson |
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shooter07
Optics Jedi Knight Shooting Sprout Joined: June/12/2010 Location: PA Status: Offline Points: 5120 |
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More good points, especially Lynn, and Mike......
The fact that we haven't had anymore successful terrorist acts since 9/11 is a testament to increased security. I don't believe i'm trading in my liberties at all by going through more/increased security checks. We aren't living in the same world of 50 years ago. Technology has gotten so much more advanced not only for the good guys, but the bad guys as well. You still have FAR more basic feedoms and privacy than anywhere else on the planet, and i've been to many parts of the world to make that statement. Profiling is only "discouraged" because of what Mike said earlier. When more whites and non Muslim's start hijacking planes and putting them in harms way then i'll change my stance on this. You profile based on statistics and based on historical data. If your business has an increase in robberies you probably aren't sitting on your hands and not doing something to better security. I don't believe the 4th amendment is being thrown out the window because the TSA wants to scan or pat you down in this day in age. There is reasonable cause based on the past 10 years in airports all across the world. The Israelis do have the right system in place. They;re in the heart of terrorism and yet they still have no problems at their airports. They do what is necessary to protect their people and nobody bitches about it, because it does good. |
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Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum
"Issac Newton invented gravity because some asshole hit him with an apple" -Chris Moltisanti |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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But we aren't talking about a simple pat down here. The TSA has been upfront in saying they are doing "more aggressive" pat downs due to the fact explosives can be hidden in underwear. Right now, as we speak, the TSA is threatening to fine a San Diego man up to $11K because he refused to let them touch his crotch a few days ago, so they escorted him out of the airport. That is what's at issue here. The Israelis, whom we should be modeling our methods after, aren't giving people the option of a body scan that allows strangers to see through their clothing or having their crotches or breasts touched. How would you like it if your wife had to have her breasts fondled by a stranger just to get on an airplane? It's not the extra cautious security measures that's the issue here. Nobody is opposed to extra security. We just shouldn't have to surrender to tyranny in order to get the increased security. The issue is the obtrusive methods that are being used that miss the mark because they target the wrong demographic when there are better methods that are proven that don't involve such a violation of one's dignity. My point is that stupid crap is unnecessary if the government would just lose the p.c. bulls*** and use the same methods that the Israelis have proven to work, which involves profiling and putting armed personnel on flights.
I'm sick and f***ing tired of everyone being asked to surrender more of our privacy solely for appearance so that everyone can be treated "equal" and we don't offend some group of people. This kind of feel good b.s. is only going to get more people killed without addressing the real issues. Edited by RifleDude - November/24/2010 at 09:12 |
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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shooter07
Optics Jedi Knight Shooting Sprout Joined: June/12/2010 Location: PA Status: Offline Points: 5120 |
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But don't the Israelis take away MORE privacy? I don't get it....You are stating we're giving up freedoms and privacy for security and yet the Israelis are even more strict regarding airport security and regulations. Believe me i loathe political correctness in this country but i think people are getting their panties in a bunch over something that isn't THAT big of a deal. Of course Muslims will be targeted first and foremost due to the data we have and the history of airport terrorism, and they should be, but that doesn't mean some Tim McVeigh won't happen from time to time. I'm just being a realist here. The TSA and government is not coming into your home or property or place of busniess and going all big brother on you. Do i think little kids need to be half naked? Or your/my wife being fondled? Of course not, but just allowing people to show up, drop their sh*t off and get on the plane is lunacy in this day in age, in this country. We have armed personnel on flights more so now then ever with air marshals by the way. Funding for this went through the roof under Bush. I'll have to dig up a link on how much we spent on in flight security. |
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Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum
"Issac Newton invented gravity because some asshole hit him with an apple" -Chris Moltisanti |
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SVT_Tactical
MODERATOR Chief Sackscratch Joined: December/17/2009 Location: NorthCackalacky Status: Offline Points: 31233 |
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I don't think anyone thinks there should be a show up drop your stuff off and get on a plane. Nobody is saying that. What we are saying is there are better methods to screen and protect citizens than the major violation of privacy that the TSA is doing.
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
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RifleDude
MODERATOR EVIL OPPRESSOR Joined: October/13/2006 Location: Texas Status: Offline Points: 16337 |
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Nope, they focus their efforts on actual behavior and use more effective ways to scan luggage and screen people by profiling based on behavioral patterns. We don't do that because those activities get labeled "racial / ethnic profiling," and we are afraid of offending people and being labeled as intolerant, racist bigots.
Of course I don't think people should just come to the airport, drop their sh*t off, and get on the plane, and no other intelligent person with common sense does either. That's absurd! I also don't think I should have to have some stranger put his or her hand on my johnson to get on an airplane. That's equally absurd. Once we get to that point, what other intrusions should we have to be subjected to? Where does it end? Who gets to decide where the line is drawn before we say enough is enough?
All I'm saying is there are more effective means to accomplish the same goal of ensuring reasonable security. Many of those are laid out in the link I provided on the previous page. We don't do that because we are afraid to acknowledge the simple fact that there are patterns of behavior and cultural characteristics that are more linked to terrorism. But, we hide our head in the sand and pretend there is no 400 lb gorilla in the room and pester people who don't exhibit the traits we know from common sense are warning signs, all for appearance's sake.
It's incrementalism. The more we accept the seeds of tyranny and say "oh, that's not that unreasonable," the more liberties we lose on the installment plan because the envelope keeps getting expanded and the government keeps assuming more and more power over every aspect of our lives. This is how government takeovers of private enterprises, unelected and unaccountable "czars" get to make decisions about how much someone should be allowed to earn, taxpayer funded federal bailouts, federal control over healthcare, etc. happens. We get desensitized about things that may seem insignificant, but they start adding up to a soft tyranny that then makes it easier for a hard tyranny to take root.
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Ted
Money can't buy happiness... but it's much more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than on a bicycle. |
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supertool73
Optics God Superstool Joined: January/03/2008 Status: Offline Points: 11814 |
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Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.
"A Liberal is a person who will give away everything they don't own." |
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lucytuma
Optics Jedi Knight Joined: November/25/2007 Location: Wisconsin Status: Offline Points: 5389 |
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So how many terrorists have they caught with this system?
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"The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." - Thomas Jefferson
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tman1965
Optics Master Joined: July/20/2010 Location: South Georgia Status: Offline Points: 1456 |
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Sometimes my tongue outruns my brain and I say something I haven't thought of yet!
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Sgt. D
Optics Master Extraordinaire Joined: February/20/2008 Location: North Carolina Status: Offline Points: 4525 |
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They can't take the common sinse approach. That would force a reversal of 98% of their agenda. If they followed Israel's example with profiling then they would have to back off of Arizona's immigration inforcment. What gets me is, I haven't heard any reports supporting the need for this level of security. Not here in the states.
If they know of planned attempts here in the states and this really is necessary they would save themselves some of this grief by informing the people. But, ofcourse they can't do that because they have set themselves as our keepers, seeing we can't think for ourselves. This adminstration has painted its self in a corner and at the same time burnt every bridge they could have hoped to use to save themselves. As for the scan or pat-down. I'd take the scan any day. I had the sicking task of security over a detainee/prison compound while in Iraq. A true pat down search is terrible for all involved. I had to do literally thousands of searches during the 13 months in country. The first couple months There were places I refused to check "properly". Then it became clear that the prisoners took full advantage of those areas no one wanted to check. They would tie their improvised weapons to their mess knowing that they would get by undetected. When I realized that by not do my job correctly I was risking my fellow soldiers lives. I hated every single search but, I was not going to be the one who let something thru that could be used against me or my soldiers.
I share those bad memories to point out that "IF" this level of security is necessary then we should be given trueful and accurate info supporting it and then we should be willing to cooperate as long as is necessary. And not look at it as surrendering liberity but as doing our part to catch anyone who might actually try to do something. Because just like in Isreal and the prisoners that knew I was on duty. The terrorist won't attempt to sneak by because they will be caught.
With that understanding I would choose the scan. I wouldn't like it at all, knowing that my wife and daughter were being seen like that but I could tolorate that better than them being felt up the way it should be done by a professional or unprofessional agent. A proper search leaves no oppertunity for anything to get by!
America has to face the fact that we have been forced into the Isreali way of life. We aren't near the same threat level but that day is comming and we can't stop it anymore that Isreal can. Not without taking action to "Terminate" the threat its self.
One last point. I know it is rediculous to see grandparents and children searched. But, anyone who has fought in Nam, Korea and the middle east likely knows that some of the suicide bombers and elders and children who attacked soldiers and were killed in the process. Did so because their family was being held hostage and they believed that doing what they were told might save their family. Now we might say we would do differently but, The possibility remains and sadly that may justify the need to search of some who appear to pose no threat.
I am not advocating what is going on right now. I have not heard any reliable reports that justify what they are doing. But if such threats are valid then I would rest better knowing that every effort was made to ensure that someone in my family was safe on a flight.
Because seriously. If you can say without question that you would kill or die to defend your family. How can you refuse some level of possible embarressment for security sake?
If you've delt personally with these people as I have then you know that they are more than willing to kill anyone they have oppertunity to. They DO NOT think like we do!
P.S. I wrote a similar comment to Hannity and was suprised and dissappointed to be referred to as a (dare I say it?)A LIBERAL.
Very insulting. The "liberal" left has a self serving agenda. I want common sense and a safe place for my grandchildren. And I won't take from you to have a free ride. Edited by Sgt. D - November/24/2010 at 23:15 |
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Take care of Soldiers, Show em how its done and do it with em, Run to the Fight & and hold your ground! I die my men go home! If you're a NCO and this ain't you. GET OUT! GOD BLESS AMERICA!
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Ed Connelly
Optics Retard God of no Chihuahua Joined: December/16/2007 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 24225 |
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Edited by Ed Connelly - November/30/2010 at 13:53 |
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neilbilly
Optics Master Joined: February/07/2010 Location: Sweeny TX Status: Offline Points: 999 |
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I don't fly if I can drive. Taking my pocket knife from me does not make me or anyone else on the plane safer. "quite the contrary" Making me take my shoes off and stand on a mat that eleventy billion other people have stood on doesn't seem really sanitary to me. Every time they cost us a freedom, they win. We are not more secure because granny gets screened but habib can cry racial profiling. The only way we are more secure is to make sure the ones that should be screened are screened. If THEY don't like it, they can not fly, or move to a country more accepting of stonings, be-headings, etc. |
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If God didn't want me to play with it, he'd of made my arms shorter.
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