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A Question For Expensive Optic Owners...

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grimreaper21 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote grimreaper21 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/07/2010 at 22:12
Originally posted by ccoker ccoker wrote:

My take is that any decent scope will let you shoot does and a nice buck
I am on a "trophy" lease this year and the ante is much higher, can't shoot just any "nice buck" you run across (not that you should anyways) but, trying to age a deer, check antlers at last possible light at 300 yards in the edge of a tree line is challenging..   I have good  binos and use them, but there is sometimes not enough time to glass, decide and then engage.

I have a Kahles Cl 3-10x50 with a 4a reticle, it will allow me to see and discern better than the Zeiss Conquest 4.5-14 I had, the resolution is better, not just seeing a deer but being able to really see the deer clearly and decide to shoot or not..

i would hope so for more than double the price Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 8shots Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 02:28
I have looked through a lot of scopes during normal sunny days. All side by side comparisons at gunshows, rifle ranges etc.
When we talk about glass, it is as a lot states above...not too much to choose from. In fact I would love to see a blind (pardon the pun) review on scopes. Put them in a shoebox, with only the ocular and the objective visible, then rate a set of scopes from 1 - 10. The results, like blind wine tasting, may be surprising.
However, there is a lot more to scopes then glass. Ruggedness, reliability, reticules, flare, edge to edge clarity, repeatability etc etc.
 
Like verything in life, what you pay for is what you get.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hatari Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 09:33
Originally posted by The Apostle The Apostle wrote:

(I know this is the "Rifle Scope" thread but...)
 
I've got a question for anyone who owns any expensive optics (scopes, binos, spotters etc) made by companies such as Swarovski, S&B, Zeiss, Nightforce etc etc.
 
I just want to know: ARE THEY REALLY THAT GOOD???
 
This is coming from someone who owns these optics:
 
Bushnell Elite 4200 2.5-10x40
Bushnell Elite 4200 4-16x40
Bushnell Elite 4200 6-24x50 Tactical
Weaver Classic Rimfire 4x28
Leupold Yosemite 8x Bino ("f--king outstanding" was my comment I made as I first looked thru these!)
 
Have just bought these:
 
Redfield Rampage spotter
Redfield Renegade 10x bino
Redfield Raider RF
 
Couldn't buy any of their scopes yet as there's 5000 on back order over here in Australia...
 
 
 
Others have already said it, but the answer is YES.  The best way to find out for yourself is go to a local dealer and line them up side by side under the same conditions at the same time, preferably twice during both low light and full sun.  Try to use scopes with similar specs, ie objective size and power range, for your comparison.
 
When I bought my first scope I did this.  The options were more limited then than now.  At that time, for my eye the swarovski 30mm ph series won out. Second was the 30mm zeiss then the nikon monarch series.  After that they dropped off greatly down to the leupold and bushnell levels.
 
Since then I have gotten to compare some other scopes and recently bought a burris.  It is very close to the swarovski and the zeiss, but not quite as good.  Still better than nikon and leupold to my eye.
 
After getting the burris, I finally found a local dealer that had the trijicon in stock.  I got to compare that with some of the others mentioned, but not all.  I would not hestitate to buy one of those also.  (I am not sure which would look better between the trijicon and my new burris since I didn't get to see those side by side, the edge may go to trijicon.) 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stickbow46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 09:47
Rich am looking forward to your findings on the Z5.I myself have Swaro Z5 3.5-18 & when I compared it to my elite 6500 there was no comparison even during the mid afternoon,which kind of surprised me!
 
To be fair the Z5 does cost twice as much.6500 is still a great deal & I will continue to use it on my AR15 [.22lr]as I think it is better than my originall SS 10X which presently sits on it but not up to the task of my SS 10X HD.
 
I'll say no more as I don't want to sway your findings any more tha I already might have.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 10:13
There's a place and purpose for the premium optics and they are indeed "better" in some ways, but for most hunting needs, they aren't essential.  A good mid range optic will do most of what you need these days.  It's all a matter of what value you place on getting ever-diminishing performance improvements and what purpose the optic is intended to serve.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 11:30
I just got a Swaro Z6 and I compared it to some of my mid priced scopes this last weekend.  Initally when I looked through it I did not think wow or anything.  But as I compared it to my other scopes it became obvious very quickly how much better optically it really is.

I thought my Trijicon had great glass and would be tough to beat.  But after using it next to the Z6 there is no comparison.  The image quality was unbelievable better. 

Now I just wish I could afford high end scopes for all my guns, as it is going to be hard to use the cheaper scopes now.


Edited by supertool73 - November/08/2010 at 11:30
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WestOfPecos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 12:06
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I just got a Swaro Z6. 

Now I just wish I could afford high end scopes for all my guns, as it is going to be hard to use the cheaper scopes now.

This is a very dangerous situation. Assuming that you have 20 rifles, this means that, 19 times out of 20, you will feel unhappy and striving for a different scope. It means that 19 week-ends out of twenty will be BAD weekends. From being a happy shooter and hunter, you could turn into a grumpy, shrewish, frowning, angry gun-owner - the most dangerous type.

I am not even discussing here what your rifles will endure. 19 out of 20 of them will be subject to a virulent attack of scope envy. This is what some people pay rifle psychiatrists (so-called "gunsmiths") thousands of dollars per year for. Oh, boy, you are in for it now...

I can see only one solution, but I am ready to help you - we can go through this together. Ship me your Z6 right away, and take away the source of unrest and dissatisfaction. Recover serenity and serendipity within your soul. Reestablish peace within your rifle community. Do not wait even one minute, or you could make your situation even worse. All of this is a PM away:-)


Edited by WestOfPecos - November/08/2010 at 12:09
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 3_tens Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 12:14
I was lucky enough to pick up a Kahles 2-7 off of the forum for my 17 HMR. I will have to admit I have missed taking shots at some squirrels because of the optics. The clarity and contrast is so good that I just watch the squirrels and forget to pull the trigger. Even at low power you can see every hair and the gleam in their eyes. Lesser scopes have less contrast and you will miss seeing your game because the slightly blurred image will allow the animals camouflage to work for them. A high end scope will bring out the fine details that will many times make the game pop out over the background in heavy cover. For me, the higher end scopes are worth the extra money. I find it hard to get away from work to go hunting. Less time in the woods makes every chance to make a shot, much more valuable.  

Edited by 3_tens - November/08/2010 at 12:17
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Need to follow the rules. Just hard to determine which set of rules to follow
Now the rules have changed again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 12:39
Originally posted by WestOfPecos WestOfPecos wrote:

Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

I just got a Swaro Z6. 

Now I just wish I could afford high end scopes for all my guns, as it is going to be hard to use the cheaper scopes now.

This is a very dangerous situation. Assuming that you have 20 rifles, this means that, 19 times out of 20, you will feel unhappy and striving for a different scope. It means that 19 week-ends out of twenty will be BAD weekends. From being a happy shooter and hunter, you could turn into a grumpy, shrewish, frowning, angry gun-owner - the most dangerous type.

I am not even discussing here what your rifles will endure. 19 out of 20 of them will be subject to a virulent attack of scope envy. This is what some people pay rifle psychiatrists (so-called "gunsmiths") thousands of dollars per year for. Oh, boy, you are in for it now...

I can see only one solution, but I am ready to help you - we can go through this together. Ship me your Z6 right away, and take away the source of unrest and dissatisfaction. Recover serenity and serendipity within your soul. Reestablish peace within your rifle community. Do not wait even one minute, or you could make your situation even worse. All of this is a PM away:-)


See the problem with that is then you will be in the same boat as I am in.  I would not wish this on anyone, so I guess I will just have to bear this burden on my own. 
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccoker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 12:45
this begs the question:
is it better to have a few rifles with decent scopes or 1 with a great scope that you know intimately?
assuming they overlap in calibers and use..


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 12:48
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

See the problem with that is then you will be in the same boat as I am in.  I would not wish this on anyone, so I guess I will just have to bear this burden on my own. 
 
I'll fix it for both of you.  ST just send me all your other scopes and then buy more swaro's to fit them.  Ill just never look through better so I want be envious.Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 15:39
Originally posted by ccoker ccoker wrote:

this begs the question:
is it better to have a few rifles with decent scopes or 1 with a great scope that you know intimately?
assuming they overlap in calibers and use..


 
I think it is always better to have more rifles.
 
Outfit one or two that you will use the most with top drawer optics and just use decent mid range optics on everything else.
 
...unless you're independently wealthy, in which case get both high end rifles and top of the line scopes for all of them!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ccoker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 16:06
definitely believe in having a backup, I would never go out hunting with just one gun...


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rich Coyle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 17:56
stickbow46,
 
What size is the objective on the two?  Have you compared the Z5 with 6500 after the sun went down?  If one is better, how many minutes better?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 19:08
Im still not sold. Most of my equipment is geared towards hunting and most of that is used at night for hogs. When im looking for hogs Im using my binoculars. When I spot one, that I think is a good boar, the challenge isnt finding him in the scope, its getting the crosshairs on him.  Ive never had a 2500.00 Swarovski with illuminated crosshairs to try this with, but im betting that at best its a hair better than my Trijicon. Its certainly not 1500.00 better. I dont deer hunt often, but to me, it would be the same except you also would have legal issues. If you find the deer in your binoculars, but cant see him through your scope, then likely, its past legal shooting hours anyway. Im assuming You have good, if not great equipment here. say, Zeiss Conquest or comparable. A scope with thick crosshairs is an advantage when shooting in low light but at the same time, its an enemy when you mostly punch paper. I could be wrong, as Im not a target shooter but I doubt if a more expensive scope would make me a better shot. I agree with RifleDude. Id rather have two good rifles with good optics than one great rifle with great optics.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JLud Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 19:44
I look at it a lot like cars, TVs, or anything else.
 
They are priced from low, to mid, to high.....You get into the law of diminishing returns...At first, a little bit more gets you a lot more features...but then, you start getting less and less for your money.  Then, you get to the point where you are paying for just a name, or a rare feature, or really just status.
 
There are people out there totally happy with a Corolla that gets them form A to B, and there are people that drive exactly the same that want a Porche.  Both serve the same purpose, one just does it faster and with more attention.
 
There are people that just want to spend 15k on a car, and those with more money that want to spend 100k on a car.  To help take that money from people, manufactures make cars that cost 100k or more.  Just like the speed limit is at 55, it doesnt stop people from getting something fast, similar to the low light condition.
 
So, if your like me, a 2011 Mustang GT at 412 hp and an interior that compares with a BMW for only 32k is great.  Others will want to spend much more to get that certain German or Italian name, thats probably actually slower, but has more prestige associated with the name.  Go with what you want, and what you can afford.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 21:32
Spoken by two guys who obviously don't own a Z6.  Wink

I used to have the same opinion, but now that I have one, I realized they really are a lot better. 

Optically a Trijicon is pretty nice.  But when comparing it next to my Swaro, it is like comparing a Trijicon to a $50 Tasco World Class.  They really are that nice.


Edited by supertool73 - November/08/2010 at 21:32
Lifetime warranty and excellent customer service don't mean a thing when your gun fails during a zombie attack.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tejas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 21:51
Originally posted by supertool73 supertool73 wrote:

Spoken by two guys who obviously don't own a Z6.  Wink

I used to have the same opinion, but now that I have one, I realized they really are a lot better. 

Optically a Trijicon is pretty nice.  But when comparing it next to my Swaro, it is like comparing a Trijicon to a $50 Tasco World Class.  They really are that nice.
Nope, I dont own one. How about explaining what shot that scope can make that a Trijicon cant and how owning one would allow me to take a shot that I wouldnt be able to take with a typical mid priced scope? Im sure they are a bit sharper, Ive looked through them at my local dealer. They are bright, contrasty. Im sure they are well built. Are they worth the money? Not to me. Id rather spend it on ammo.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 22:05
I never saw any reason to own anything else than a fixed 4X scope (which I still have  - a Leupy FX-II) until I decided I wanted to be able to shoot out past max. point blank range. With my two variables - a NF and a Premier - I've dumped some cash into them. But they track like lasers, are built like tanks, have great turrets (esp. the Premier), really versatile magnification ranges, and excellent reticles. The NF has (to my eye) really nice glass while the Premier has glass that is on par with the best. I wouldn't shoot a game animal much farther past what I could with the 4X but I do practice out as far as I can as often as possible. The 600 yard shots make the 300 yard shots a lot easier and the 300 yard shots make the 100 yard shots a snap.


Edited by jonoMT - November/08/2010 at 22:07
Reaction time is a factor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stickbow46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November/08/2010 at 22:55
+1 with jono.
 
Rich, my bell is 44,that's all they make for the 3.5-18.on the one that you ordered they only make a 52 bell.I only got my scope 3 weeks ago,have not hunted with it yet.I did however wait till the sun went down to compare with the 6500.I was able to see quite a bit more with the Swaro,by that I mean the clarity jumps out while the 6500 made everthing look bland & lack luster & I seemed to have lost most of the detail I had earlier.I compared both scopes at 5-10 & 14 power to try & make it as close as posible.
 
A closer comparison was with my Conquest3.5-10x50,there the difference was much smaller,but overall the Z5 still kicked butt,even with a 44 vs a 50 bell.
 
Looking forward to your findings!
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