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EPA looking at banning traditional ammo

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RifleDude View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RifleDude Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/28/2010 at 14:15
Originally posted by cyborg cyborg wrote:

The whole thing is actually incrementalism. 


Yep, that's right!  Politicians know that they can't express their real agendas outright because they wouldn't get votes.  So, they advocate "sensible" new regulations that move the bar an inch at a time toward tyranny, and the result is we lose our liberties on the installment plan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/28/2010 at 14:39
"The rights of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" Therefore any means of imposition that would preclude, via excessive taxation, legislation, bench decree/precedent, is in fact a Constitutional issue, and as such should be stricken down immediately. This is where the ideology of a "living" Constitution can readily show the danger that it represents to the freedom of this Country. It is this ideology that one will use to argue that in this day and time the original content is secondary to the needs/interest of the present.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mike650 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August/28/2010 at 16:08
Originally posted by tahqua tahqua wrote:

Federal law is non-tox for waterfowl. In Michigan lead is OK for upland(pheasant, grouse, woodcock).



Same here, (dove, quail, etc. - OK)
“A hunt based only on trophies taken falls far short of what the ultimate goal should be.” – Fred Bear
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mpk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 00:56
I don't want to get into a political argument. I'm a hunter, sport shooter, and biochemist. I have stopped using lead because it is inarguably toxic- that is not debatable. I have 2 kids and I don't want them to eat venison unless it was harvested with copper bullets. Human blood lead studies have recently been finished showing that eating lead-shot venison increases Pb levels. You can't necessarily avoid avoid fragments by removing the wound channel. Again, not political, just scientific. Look at the data and make up your own mind but don't dismiss it as left-wing conspiracy. You can see data including x-rays of game taken with jacketed lead bullets and decide for yourself. 

http://www.ndhealth.gov/lead/venison/
http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/hunting/lead/index.html


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jonoMT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 09:14
This item from http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/fish_wildlife/lead/bulletstudy/resources/huntertips.pdf struck me as a major reason for lead fragmentation. Properly placed shots tend to exit the animal, e.g. rib cage right behind the foreleg. And they are the most immediately lethal. I haven't recovered a bullet in a deer for years and will pass up a shot unless I can put it in the lungs or heart. Now that's mitigation.

5. SHOT PLACEMENT CAN MINIMIZE YOUR EXPOSURE TO LEAD
The study showed that a shot into the hind-quarters, where heavy bones are located, will result in high and widespread fragmentation in the meatiest part of the animal. Hunters need to choose their shots wisely and maintain their marksmanship skills.


(Gotta wonder what kind of "hunter" ruins the hindquarters of a game animal).


Edited by jonoMT - September/16/2010 at 09:15
Reaction time is a factor...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 09:25
I believe that was shot down a week or so back.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 11:11
There are studies that indicate the confiscation of guns deters crimes. That man causes global warming. That the rich when not taxed properly harms the economy. I have hunted most all of my life. I have eaten harvested game all of my life. No lead in my system above that of any other human being in my age group.
What comes next? Think about this too, and think long and hard. Reloading supplies expose you to carcinogens.  Yet just how many long time reloaders are suffering from cancer?
Lead can be found in vegetables, water, earth. It is ingested regardless of eating gun harvested meat. Why is this? Because lead is a common element. Take ammunition out of the equation, and lead is still a common element. 
Like it or not this is political, and when you engage in this debate you are going to have to recognize this as fact.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 11:21
One further thing.... I do not trust any government sponsored study. Remember government and the politicians that run it have an agenda. That agenda isn't in your, or our best interest.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tman1965 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 15:11

+1 Cyborg!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 15:15
Everyone now.... Repeat after me.... I am no one's fool. I refuse to play the fool.
Repeat this process until you believe it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote stickbow46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 16:17
+2 cyborg.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Urimaginaryfrnd Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 17:10

Evil Batthe  EPA


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ed Connelly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 17:23
Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

the university of wyoming of all places did a study on lead poisoning of prairie dog towns, and claimed that shooters not only killed prairie dogs with lead, they killed hawks, owls and eagles to name a few bird species from second hand ingestion. the FRICKIN Univ. of WYOMING.. are you kidding me?? when i read about that i almost had to renounce my allegiance to the home land.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 20:47
Originally posted by Ed Connelly Ed Connelly wrote:

Originally posted by pyro6999 pyro6999 wrote:

the university of wyoming of all places did a study on lead poisoning of prairie dog towns, and claimed that shooters not only killed prairie dogs with lead, they killed hawks, owls and eagles to name a few bird species from second hand ingestion. the FRICKIN Univ. of WYOMING.. are you kidding me?? when i read about that i almost had to renounce my allegiance to the home land.
 
Albany County and Teton County went Blue for Obama!!!    IN WYOMING!!!     

i could see teton doing that, nothing but a bunch of bunny huggin granola heads live up there now. albany though??? must be all the idiots at the university of wyoming.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pyro6999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 20:48
Originally posted by jonoMT jonoMT wrote:

This item from http://files.dnr.state.mn.us/fish_wildlife/lead/bulletstudy/resources/huntertips.pdf struck me as a major reason for lead fragmentation. Properly placed shots tend to exit the animal, e.g. rib cage right behind the foreleg. And they are the most immediately lethal. I haven't recovered a bullet in a deer for years and will pass up a shot unless I can put it in the lungs or heart. Now that's mitigation.

5. SHOT PLACEMENT CAN MINIMIZE YOUR EXPOSURE TO LEAD
The study showed that a shot into the hind-quarters, where heavy bones are located, will result in high and widespread fragmentation in the meatiest part of the animal. Hunters need to choose their shots wisely and maintain their marksmanship skills.


(Gotta wonder what kind of "hunter" ruins the hindquarters of a game animal).

i wouldnt listen to a word the mn dnr has to say, they think we have shortage of deer and that mountain lions dont exist in minnesota.Loco
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mpk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/16/2010 at 23:43
Does smoking increases the risk of cancer? Because that was the conclusion of studies sponsored by the government. 

Like they say everyone's entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts. Anyway there's some pretty good copper bullets these days (in my opinion).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 07:44
 
Does abstanence prevent pregnancy 100% of the time?  NO Look at the Virgin Mary! 
 
Either way.  There is no evidence that game shot by lead bullets causes anyone to get any more lead in there system than game shot with copper bullets.  At least not a credible one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hebertjb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 11:25
Originally posted by mpk mpk wrote:

Does smoking increases the risk of cancer? Because that was the conclusion of studies sponsored by the government. 

Like they say everyone's entitled to their own opinions but not their own facts. Anyway there's some pretty good copper bullets these days (in my opinion).
 
Assuming alternative bullets were as good as lead both in application and from a cost persepective, one cannot lose sight of the fact that this is an anti-gun tactic at heart. Are you, sir, willing to let another personal liberty be trampled upon by a governemnt already out of control - I just don't get people.......Loco
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mpk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/17/2010 at 13:13
"Assuming alternative bullets were as good as lead both in application and from a cost persepective, one cannot lose sight of the fact that this is an anti-gun tactic at heart. Are you, sir, willing to let another personal liberty be trampled upon by a governemnt already out of control - I just don't get people..."

I am as angry if not more angry than you about a lot of the idiotic things the government has done and is doing. I just don't buy the premise that studying lead poisoning and finding alternatives is an anti-gun tactic. I agree that some anti-gun advocates want to do anything they can to regulate guns, and are happy with any new regulation, but that doesn't mean that all regulation is necessarily a bad idea. 

It is paranoid to claim that all government is bad and all regulation is bad. If you believe that then you are assuming that human nature is totally benign and there would never be any reason to have safety regulations.  Salmonela in eggs, poisonous heavy metals in children's toys from China, etc. We usually end up paying a lot more for not properly regulating corporations in the first place. Case in point how much taxpayer money have we lost down the rathole of Wall Street on corrupt bankers that went crazy with greed when finacial regulations were repealed. I don't mind paying taxes for roads, firemen etc., but not that...oh well politics is not where I wanted to go with this. I like copper bullets, I'll leave it at that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cyborg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September/18/2010 at 00:56
Freedom has costs and it has risks. If you allow a governemnt to begin the elimination of the costs and risks, then freedom also is lost. Government is needed, but only does it serve freedom when it is limited and kept within those limits. We have lost only the tax payer money that was given by the government to Wall Street. The rest is theirs to lose. Government should be out of private enterprise all together.
Now to hear you blame the bankers is more of the "evil rich" mentality that allows politicians to continue their assault unchecked on all of us. They are far more to blame than the bankers for what happened, and for what? To buy votes, that's what. You take into account the trampling of freedoms, the lust for absolute power, and the blame game they employ at will with the help of the Media. Their agenda is quite clear to me, and to many others as well. 
Now have you ever heard of copper poisoning? There is such a thing you know. That will be next. Then there's the carcinogen factor related to reloading too. Go ahead, and open that door if you are so inclined to have the vast wisdom beyond the rest of us. That you and the government know what's best for the rest of us. We need to be saved from ourselves, we are too ignorant to assume the risks. One day we will be without the means to secure and defend our freedoms, and it will be due to this incrementalist societal engineering crap. All of it will be from the fostering of studies designed for and aimed at separating us from our rights. For the greater good of course.
You like copper bullets? Fine, shoot them all you wish too. But atleast have the decency to open your eyes rather than blindly following, and waking too late for any of us to do damned thing about maintaining freedom.
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