QuoteReplyTopic: Is stopping power a myth? Posted: August/06/2010 at 17:10
I found the recent discussions about caliber choices for deer hunting and barrel twist rates very interesting.Clearly, lots of different calibers are capable of taking deer.But as all of us know, there is more to the story. Lets stay with hunting deer at ranges of 200 yards, or less.
For your choice of caliber, if bullet placement is the most important factor in putting a deer down quickly, what are other important factors and how do you rank them?
Examples (some may be interrelated):bullet construction, penetration depth, size of the permanent wound cavity, size of the temporary wound cavity, core fragmentation, cutting surfaces on monolithic bullets when deformed, etc.
1. Shot placement, preferably a high shoulder shot
2. A big hole is better than a small hole (Permanent wound channel of 0.6 inches, or more)
3. Two holes are better than one hole (Penetration of at least 13 or 14 inches in wet paper).
4. Heavy for caliber bullets whose core fragments (partitions)
5. A minimum velocity of 2000 fps at 200 yds.
tom, some food for thoughts, heavy for caliber isnt always the best, think back to the 70's before i was even born. a lot of guys used the 200-220gr .308 diameter bullets in the 30-06's and they ended up losing a lot of animals, there is a line in the sand where to heavy and not enough speed equal failure. imo in the .308 class unless your using a magnum of some kind the 180gr bullet is plenty, if your using a magnum 200-225 is acceptable out to reasonable distances.
They call me "Boots" 375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"
Shot placement above all else, I heard of guy killing a deer with pellet gun. everything else kind falls into place after that i guess. lol hell never really gave it much thought untill now.
I wasn't upset about the black cat crossing my path this morning but mouthing "your fu@#ed" as he passed was just rude.
1. Shot placement, preferably a high shoulder shot
2. A big hole is better than a small hole (Permanent wound channel of 0.6 inches, or more)
3. Two holes are better than one hole (Penetration of at least 13 or 14 inches in wet paper).
4. Heavy for caliber bullets whose core fragments (partitions)
5. A minimum velocity of 2000 fps at 200 yds.
tom, some food for thoughts, heavy for caliber isnt always the best, think back to the 70's before i was even born. a lot of guys used the 200-220gr .308 diameter bullets in the 30-06's and they ended up losing a lot of animals, there is a line in the sand where to heavy and not enough speed equal failure. imo in the .308 class unless your using a magnum of some kind the 180gr bullet is plenty, if your using a magnum 200-225 is acceptable out to reasonable distances.
I completely agree with you. I haven't used them on deer, but I tried some Federal 200 gr 30-06 bullets in wet paper and they did not expand well at all. That is the reason I qualified my "Heavy for caliber" with "a core that fragments," and added the minimum velocity factor.
I am sure there will be lots who disagree with me, but IMO, for this application, 180 gr is on the heavy-for-caliber side for a .308 or 30-06. They seem to be best with the 165 to 168 gr bullets.
1. Shot placement, preferably a high shoulder shot
2. A big hole is better than a small hole (Permanent wound channel of 0.6 inches, or more)
3. Two holes are better than one hole (Penetration of at least 13 or 14 inches in wet paper).
4. Heavy for caliber bullets whose core fragments (partitions)
5. A minimum velocity of 2000 fps at 200 yds.
tom, some food for thoughts, heavy for caliber isnt always the best, think back to the 70's before i was even born. a lot of guys used the 200-220gr .308 diameter bullets in the 30-06's and they ended up losing a lot of animals, there is a line in the sand where to heavy and not enough speed equal failure. imo in the .308 class unless your using a magnum of some kind the 180gr bullet is plenty, if your using a magnum 200-225 is acceptable out to reasonable distances.
I completely agree with you. I haven't used them on deer, but I tried some Federal 200 gr 30-06 bullets in wet paper and they did not expand well at all. That is the reason I qualified my "Heavy for caliber" with "a core that fragments," and added the minimum velocity factor.
I am sure there will be lots who disagree with me, but IMO, for this application, 180 gr is on the heavy-for-caliber side for a .308 or 30-06. They seem to be best with the 165 to 168 gr bullets.
thats it tom, the 30-06 just cant push those heavier bullets fast enough to let them work properly. when i had a 30-06 i shot 150gr bullets out of it and they were plenty good to take down elk. with the 3 .300's ive now owned ive started all of them at 180gr and feel fine working up to 200gr or more.
They call me "Boots" 375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"
My .458 Lott that I hunt with, I sometimes use 350gr at 1700fps, 440 grain at 1500fps... deer roll over and just die, they don't even move. I've never had a deer go anywhere with a 30-06 220gr, but it produces too much bloodshot meat. Nasty wound cavity. The .458 is a much cleaner kill...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
My .458 Lott that I hunt with, I sometimes use 350gr at 1700fps, 440 grain at 1500fps... deer roll over and just die, they don't even move. I've never had a deer go anywhere with a 30-06 220gr, but it produces too much bloodshot meat. Nasty wound cavity. The .458 is a much cleaner kill...
apples and oranges there. we will have to agree to disagree on the 06
They call me "Boots" 375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"
My .458 Lott that I hunt with, I sometimes use 350gr at 1700fps, 440 grain at 1500fps... deer roll over and just die, they don't even move. I've never had a deer go anywhere with a 30-06 220gr, but it produces too much bloodshot meat. Nasty wound cavity. The .458 is a much cleaner kill...
apples and oranges there. we will have to agree to disagree on the 06
OK, we do...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Federal has no data I will take as valid, based upon experience with Federal products in the field. I will not use anything Federal produces...
However, the points of physics are always true MassxAcceleration is TRUE, and a lighter bullet pushed at higher acceleration can produce more energy than a heavier bullet at lower acceleration... if you search back through threads, you will see that I have stated that on many occassions when the heavier bullets were being touted as so far superior to the lighter bullets. However, I have used 220gr 30-06 for a very long time... until I found the .458 Lott, 30-06 was my VERY FAVORITE caliber for all around, just about anything... over time, it may still be. I've used 55gr accelerator, 110gr, 120gr, 147gr, 150, 154gr, 160-168gr, 175gr, 180gr, 190gr and 220gr in 30-06 and never had one of them fail to kill a deer. I have used Federal 165gr power shok which fragmented on impact and failed to kill two hogs... the only game I have ever lost and not recovered, found after they died in the woods. It still haunts me, though Federal doesn't seem to mind much... they never responded to any of my queries on the ammo.
Some commercial ammo, some hand loaded, some CNC built bullets. I hunted almost exclusively with 220gr Winchester Super-X for about 15 years and NEVER once failed to drop the animal. I have seen some heavy bloodshot meat with 150, 180, 220gr bullets... seems to be more with the 150gr Nosler ballistic tips... big internal damage, but a lot of damage overall, more meat loss with those than anything I have hunted with.
Work calls, but my experience may be different than yours...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
here is what a friend of mine sent me, he has been hunting longer than ive been alive and he can attest first hand to what im talking about.
I agree with you 100% from personal observation. And from personal
observation you can add the .308 to that list. 200-220 grain bullets
were made for DEEP penetration on big game like moose, grizzly, elk,
ect. They were not made for use on deer, period. The other myth is their
great ability to blow through brush and not deflect, another big crock
of BS. Think of a bowling ball. A ball that is thrown slowly down the
lane deflects more off the pins than a ball that is thrown fast and
hard. I do not own (well, I do own one '06 that is waiting to have the
barrel replaced with that Brux 25 cal 1-9 twist) a 30-06 or 308 because
when I started deer hunting some 50 plus years ago, the other members of
Dad's hunting party, other than him and I, had those two calibers with
the heavy round nosed bullets. To make a long story short, I spent my
first years of deer hunting tracking wounded deer shot with those two
calibers and heavy bullets more than I did hunting because I had a knack
for doing so and finding them. It seemed as though the heavy bullets
penciled through, never opening up, and the deer went a long ways before
dying. In most of the deer, even though they were cup and core bullets,
had an exit hole the same size as the entry hole. Yes, they killed
deer, but due to individuals not being able to track an animal more than
20 yards, many deer were lost. I made a vow to myself to NEVER, NEVER
hunt with those two calibers, much less the heavy bullets, and to this
day that is the case.
winchester to my knowledge doesnt off anything in the 30-06 heavier than 180gr and the only two companies i could find that do are federal and remington, so i used the federal info.
They call me "Boots" 375H&H Mag: Yeah, it kills stuff "extra dead"
Hunter, I've still got a box of Winchester Super-X 220 grain. I'll send you a picture when I get home. As for what your friend thinks of 220 grain bullets for hunting deer, that's his business, but it does not impact my hunting practices in the least. I have hunted with 220 grain Winchester Super-X for quite some time. I don't now because I'm using a .458 Lott...
Opinion,untempered by fact,is ignorance.
There are some who do not fear death... for they are more afraid of not really living
Then construction and penetration. I have yet to see and animal hit right not go down. And it doesn't matter what the bullet design was. The old bullets worked, and the new bullets work. The only one I have not been a fan of was the SSTs. Too much damage when a bone was hit.
To be prepared for War is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.
I'm in the school of speed and hydrostatic shock myself if we are talking about deer/elk sized game. No offense to Kickboxer, but I've never heard of anyone prior to him using a 458 Lott on deer. This whole idea of "knock down power" relates more to thick skinned dangerous game using solid projectiles to stop charging game. I believe there is a gentlemen named Taylor (IIRC) who came up with the concept.
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