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mpr1tbr1 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2010 at 14:11
REREAD my post. I called vortex and was repeatedly told their scopes were suposto be that way, and I just bought a Leupold from SWFA.
Mike
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2010 at 14:15
my bad.......
"Most folks are about as happy as they make their minds up to be" - Abraham Lincoln
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2010 at 14:57
Im going to check one out on saturday. If i like it like i think i will, I will Probably order from swfa if i can keep from bringing it home right then.
"keep your booger hook off the bang switch!"
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2010 at 16:53
Originally posted by mpr1tbr1 mpr1tbr1 wrote:

I have been impressed with what I have read here and elseware reguarding Vortex, but I have just shipped one back, at my expense, to competitor. I bought the Crossfire 6-24 x 50 AO mildot to mount on an air rifle. I wanted something better than a Hawk or Leapers, but did not want to spend as much as another Leupold or Sightron would cost. The scope came last night, and this morning I checked it out befor mounting it. I focused the retical and then focused the objective at a bird feeder a known 15 yards away at 6 x. I then zoomed to 10 x and the scope was totaly out of focus, I mean colored blobs no detail. I refocused using the objective went up to 11.5 x, way out of focus again. To cut this short the scope would not hold focus while zooming on objects at mesured distanced of 15 and 20 yards. This on a scope rated at 10 yards and up.
 
Ok, the guy got a bad scope, tough, send it back, right ? Now heres what I find interesting. I called competitor for an RMA # and was told they would take the scope back but at my expence because they believed it was functioning correctly.  Ok, the scope is definately going back, so do I ask for a replacement, or my money back. Next I call Vortex and speak to customer service, and describe my problem. I am told thats the way the scope functions. Look I'm not talking about zooming from 6 to 24 and needing to do a sight refocus, I am talking about going from 10 to 11.5 and having to do serious correction. "Thats the way the scope functions." How about, it would take three hands to use his scope, one to hold the rifle and two to work the objective and zoom togerher. Now he's 70% shure the scope is ok but if I send it in they will be happy to replace it. Also it is just a cheap scope and they build much better ones and if I'm willing to spend a couple of grand I can get one I will be realy happy with. Needless to say, I quickly made my decision not to ask for a replacement.
 
When you hang around with air gunners you get to see some $3000 Schmidt & Bender glass and a heck of a lot more $40 no name wonders, but you never see a scope that won't hold something close to correct focus across the zoom range. Or at least not one the company won't admit is defective.
 
Even though that scope is parallax adjustable from 10 yards up, focus becomes very critical at such short distances at relatively high magnification, especially on a 6-24X50 scope, which truly isn't designed for shooting at 15 yards.  You will have to adjust focus more when increasing magnification at super close range; that's just the way it is. 
 
Please read forum rule #3.  The forum software auto substitutes names of competitors with the word "competitor."  You agreed to the rules when you registered your user account on  this site.  This site is owned and operated by SWFA, so it's bad form to mention competing optics retailers on SWFA's site they provide for our use, even if the forum software automatically filters the name of the retailer.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2010 at 19:02
Ted, you are absolutely right that I should not have mentioned a competers name in my post. My purpose was to show their lack of understanding and their unhelpfull attatude.
 
In reguard to your first comment, I must STRONGLY DISAGREE. When a manufacture/vender publishes a specification such as 10 yards to infinity I believe the buyer has absolute right to exspect the scope to correctly preform all normal functions with within the range of peramiters the manufacture has set. If we can not relie on a manufactures published specifications, then we can only safely buy in a brick and morter store, and companies like SWFA, that provide a great service must loose, and we as consumers must also loose. An attatude like "that's just the way it is.", doesen't help. We must hold manufactuers to account, and venders to account also. A man who repeats a lie is a fool, a man who knowingly repeats a lie is a d----d liar himself. Now I am telling you that I talked to a man at Vertex this morning that told me, repetedly, that their published specification for this ONE scope was worthless. As for your arguement that it was not designed to be used at at 15 yards or 20 yards, where was it designed to be used? Only use from 50 yards? Only from 75? I must have missed that on their website.
 
Other companies build both cheaper and more exspensive scopes, in the 6-24 range, and greater, that function correctly from 10 yards out, and SWFA sells them. They advertize paralax ajustable from 10 yards out and they deliver what they advertize, with full functionality. I was looking for better quality, at a resonable price, as comments on this site and others had lead me to exspect. I diden't find it, I guess "that's just the way it is.". 
 
Mike
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2010 at 21:04
Is the 4-16X50 30mm PST with the EBR mil reticle availble yet?  For $849.95 I'm seriously looking to put it on a .308 long range AR I'm building.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/25/2010 at 22:27
Originally posted by mpr1tbr1 mpr1tbr1 wrote:

Ted, you are absolutely right that I should not have mentioned a competers name in my post. My purpose was to show their lack of understanding and their unhelpfull attatude.
 
In reguard to your first comment, I must STRONGLY DISAGREE. When a manufacture/vender publishes a specification such as 10 yards to infinity I believe the buyer has absolute right to exspect the scope to correctly preform all normal functions with within the range of peramiters the manufacture has set. If we can not relie on a manufactures published specifications, then we can only safely buy in a brick and morter store, and companies like SWFA, that provide a great service must loose, and we as consumers must also loose. An attatude like "that's just the way it is.", doesen't help. We must hold manufactuers to account, and venders to account also. A man who repeats a lie is a fool, a man who knowingly repeats a lie is a d----d liar himself. Now I am telling you that I talked to a man at Vertex this morning that told me, repetedly, that their published specification for this ONE scope was worthless. As for your arguement that it was not designed to be used at at 15 yards or 20 yards, where was it designed to be used? Only use from 50 yards? Only from 75? I must have missed that on their website.
 
Other companies build both cheaper and more exspensive scopes, in the 6-24 range, and greater, that function correctly from 10 yards out, and SWFA sells them. They advertize paralax ajustable from 10 yards out and they deliver what they advertize, with full functionality. I was looking for better quality, at a resonable price, as comments on this site and others had lead me to exspect. I diden't find it, I guess "that's just the way it is.". 
 

dude get spell check seriously, and whats the deal are you a defense lawyer or what??
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2010 at 03:55
I have had my 6-24x50 Crossfire on a spring gun and have had no problems. It can close focus at thirty feet. I don't use it set on 24x at that range because I have no need for that magnification there. From 6-10x it is very clear.
 
Doug
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2010 at 05:37
Originally posted by M25BeastShooter M25BeastShooter wrote:

Is the 4-16X50 30mm PST with the EBR mil reticle availble yet?  For $849.95 I'm seriously looking to put it on a .308 long range AR I'm building.
 
Sir, why would you even consider another Vortex product, after having the experience with them that you claim to have had?
Just asking. No dog in this fight for me, either way, I just find that curious.  
 
Has the Vortex "spook" that hangs out here been advised to this thread? I can't readily recall his name. I'd like to see his response to this guys plight.
 
Welcome to Optics Talk.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2010 at 07:03
Originally posted by mpr1tbr1 mpr1tbr1 wrote:



In reguard to your first comment, I must STRONGLY DISAGREE. When a manufacture/vender publishes a specification such as 10 yards to infinity I believe the buyer has absolute right to exspect the scope to correctly preform all normal functions with within the range of peramiters the manufacture has set. If we can not relie on a manufactures published specifications, then we can only safely buy in a brick and morter store, and companies like SWFA, that provide a great service must loose, and we as consumers must also loose. An attatude like "that's just the way it is.", doesen't help. We must hold manufactuers to account, and venders to account also. A man who repeats a lie is a fool, a man who knowingly repeats a lie is a d----d liar himself. Now I am telling you that I talked to a man at Vertex this morning that told me, repetedly, that their published specification for this ONE scope was worthless. As for your arguement that it was not designed to be used at at 15 yards or 20 yards, where was it designed to be used? Only use from 50 yards? Only from 75? I must have missed that on their website.
 
Other companies build both cheaper and more exspensive scopes, in the 6-24 range, and greater, that function correctly from 10 yards out, and SWFA sells them. They advertize paralax ajustable from 10 yards out and they deliver what they advertize, with full functionality. I was looking for better quality, at a resonable price, as comments on this site and others had lead me to exspect. I diden't find it, I guess "that's just the way it is.". 
 


You misunderstand.  It IS capable of focus from 10 yards and up, but the fact of life with ALL optics is when you are viewing at extremely short distance and using high power, focus unavoidably becomes more critical because your depth of field is narrower.  Therefore, you will have to refocus more when changing power at extremely close distance.  The same applies to not just scopes, but cameras, binoculars, spotters... ALL optics.  I have a pretty expensive, high end spotting scope.  I can focus that scope at a given power at relatively short distance, but as I increase power, I will have to refocus because I am viewing at a critical distance at high magnification.  That doesn't mean the spotting scope isn't designed to be able to view things at that distance; it just means that under those conditions, my depth of field is very narrow and magnification has a direct influence on depth of field.  With binoculars, for example, even though most are set at a single power, if you are looking at something at 20 feet, then look at another object at 20 yards, you will have to refocus.  The need to refocus is minimized when you drop down in power and increase viewing distance.  Or, in other words, your depth of field increases.  Nobody is lying -- that's just the way it works. 
 
For an analogy... you can get many compact "point and shoot" digital cameras with super high ISO exposure settings up to 3200 or even 6400 for extreme low light use.  Will the camera take a picture at those super high sensitivity settings?  Yes, and the resulting picture might be acceptable for simple documentation purposes.  BUT, usually the image will be of extremely poor quality, with excessive "noise," because the typical sensor in a compact camera isn't capable of duplicating the speed and sensitivity of sensors used in SLR cameras.  In short, it's "designed" to do it, but it's at the fringe of the design envelope and you won't get optimal results.  Every design decision involves a series of tradeoffs -- in order to gain one capability or feature, some other capability or feature usually has to be sacrificed.

All centerfire rifle scopes, and this is one of them, are technically designed to be used from about 50 yards and out.  Scopes designed for centerfire use that don't have parallax adjustment are typically parallax adjusted at 100 yards / 100 meters.  Scopes designed for rimfire use are parallax adjusted for 50 yards.  Scopes that have parallax adjustment for extremely close distances have that feature so that you can shoot at really close distance at a given power if needed, but that isn't typically the norm.  A 6-24X scope is not a close range scope, and since you were using it at the very margins of its design envelope, focus becomes more critical within a narrower depth of field.  The same is true of most anything used at the margins of where it was designed to be used.  As magnification increases, the scope's image quality, especially at short range, dramatically decreases.  Again, that's just the way optics works, and since the Crossfire is one of Vortex's bargain scopes, it isn't going to have the image quality that you would expect from a more expensive optic, especially at high magnification.
 
I am not implying you don't have a problem with your scope, but based solely on what you describe, your scope is functioning normally.  With all due respect, I believe you are blaming the manufacturer for your own lack of understanding of how optics work.
 
Please reassure me that you weren't referring to me with your "a man who knowingly repeats a lie is a d----d liar himself" comment.  You may not like my answer, but I answered your post truthfully and politely. 


Edited by RifleDude - May/26/2010 at 10:00
Ted


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/26/2010 at 08:29

Your argument would, no doubt, carry more weight if you learned how to spell - or employ spell checker. It is painful. Just saying.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2010 at 08:02
Hi Doug, Your comments about your Vortex greatly influanced my decision to buy. I believe I did get a defective scope, despite what I was told by " the competator " and by Vortex.
 
Hi Ted, first I was not calling you a liar, I was implying that a vender " the competator " not SWFA, if they truly believed that what I had was proforming correctly. were delibertly lying in repeating what Vortex had published, when they knew that it was not true. Ted, please reread my posts the only powers of magnafacation I mention were going from 6 to 10 and from 10 to 11.5, not exactly "high" magnafication. The laws of optics diticate that all things being equal all scopes will behave simmuleraly, at simmuler powers of magnacification and point of paralax focus. S&B make a scope 10-50 I have focused that scope at 10 yards and, 10 power, then zoomed to 50 power and it remained cristal clear at point of paralax focus. Niko Sterling builds one for about $400 and a better one for $900. Leapers, Hawke, Simmons, BSA, ect.. all build cheap scopes at 6-24 or greater, that can hold their point of focus as you zoom in. Practicaly every camera made does it, and if your centerfire scope doesen't it is defective or very poorly built. Pickup a camera, point it at an object 10 feet away, focus, zoom,deapth of field changes but you do not have to refocus. My scope, focused at 15 yards compleatly lost focus, with every change of maganification. That is eather a defect or extreamly poor quality, or both.
 
To anyone who thinks I am going to buy another Vortex, I'm crazy not stupid.
 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2010 at 08:20
 It would be nice if you could compare yours to another of the same model.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2010 at 10:54
Originally posted by mpr1tbr1 mpr1tbr1 wrote:

Hi Ted, first I was not calling you a liar, I was implying that a vender " the competator " not SWFA, if they truly believed that what I had was proforming correctly. were delibertly lying in repeating what Vortex had published, when they knew that it was not true. Ted, please reread my posts the only powers of magnafacation I mention were going from 6 to 10 and from 10 to 11.5, not exactly "high" magnafication. The laws of optics diticate that all things being equal all scopes will behave simmuleraly, at simmuler powers of magnacification and point of paralax focus. S&B make a scope 10-50 I have focused that scope at 10 yards and, 10 power, then zoomed to 50 power and it remained cristal clear at point of paralax focus. Niko Sterling builds one for about $400 and a better one for $900. Leapers, Hawke, Simmons, BSA, ect.. all build cheap scopes at 6-24 or greater, that can hold their point of focus as you zoom in. Practicaly every camera made does it, and if your centerfire scope doesen't it is defective or very poorly built. Pickup a camera, point it at an object 10 feet away, focus, zoom,deapth of field changes but you do not have to refocus. My scope, focused at 15 yards compleatly lost focus, with every change of maganification. That is eather a defect or extreamly poor quality, or both.
 
 
First, there are no such "laws of optics" that dictate any such thing.  You are talking about changing magnification after focusing at a short distance at a different magnification.  How much change in focus you experience when changing magnification under those circumstances depends on the focal length of the optic and the design of the whole optical system, so you can't make generalizations. 
 
Second, you don't know that anyone is lying to you, because the scope will technically focus at the advertised distances.  You just don't like the fact it doesn't maintain the same focus as you increase magnification at that very short distance, which may or may not be a design defect or poor quality.  Did you see the same issues at 25 yards?
 
Third, the magnifications you mention are indeed high for 15 yards, so focus will be critical because you have a very shallow depth of field, which is a function of magnification and the optic's focal length.
 
Fourth, S&B doesn't make a 10-50X scope.  They do make a 12.5-50X56, which is what you may be referring to, but that is a $3200 34mm main tube scope, so you couldn't hardly pick a more dissimilar scope to compare to the Crossfire.
 
Fifth, all of the scopes you mention will be affected by the same issue to varying degrees under the same conditions of extremely short viewing distance you describe.  How much change in focus you experience depends on several variables including focal length, magnification, and design of the entire optic.  It doesn't mean your unit is defective, only that it is less suited to the conditions you are using it in.
 
Sixth, your camera analogy is wrong.  Refocusing is usually required as you zoom in on objects at close distance.  You just don't notice it with most current cameras because they autofocus for you.
 
Your scope may be defective, but what you describe is not necessarily a defect or poor quality because it is quite common at such a short distance.  I realize you don't believe that, but you are simply incorrect.  If you aren't willing to accept that, then I suggest you continue buying more Leapers, Simmons, and BSA scopes that you speak highly of.  I don't care what brands you buy; I'm only trying to explain to you why what you observed is not at all uncommon and may not be indicative of a faulty scope.
Ted


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2010 at 11:05
Excellent
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2010 at 11:13
This MuchBow
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2010 at 14:19
Nicely said ted.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2010 at 16:15
Ted for President!  ExcellentExcellentExcellent
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2010 at 20:14
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/27/2010 at 20:48
Originally posted by RifleDude RifleDude wrote:

Originally posted by mpr1tbr1 mpr1tbr1 wrote:

Hi Ted, first I was not calling you a liar, I was implying that a vender " the competator " not SWFA, if they truly believed that what I had was proforming correctly. were delibertly lying in repeating what Vortex had published, when they knew that it was not true. Ted, please reread my posts the only powers of magnafacation I mention were going from 6 to 10 and from 10 to 11.5, not exactly "high" magnafication. The laws of optics diticate that all things being equal all scopes will behave simmuleraly, at simmuler powers of magnacification and point of paralax focus. S&B make a scope 10-50 I have focused that scope at 10 yards and, 10 power, then zoomed to 50 power and it remained cristal clear at point of paralax focus. Niko Sterling builds one for about $400 and a better one for $900. Leapers, Hawke, Simmons, BSA, ect.. all build cheap scopes at 6-24 or greater, that can hold their point of focus as you zoom in. Practicaly every camera made does it, and if your centerfire scope doesen't it is defective or very poorly built. Pickup a camera, point it at an object 10 feet away, focus, zoom,deapth of field changes but you do not have to refocus. My scope, focused at 15 yards compleatly lost focus, with every change of maganification. That is eather a defect or extreamly poor quality, or both.
 
 
First, there are no such "laws of optics" that dictate any such thing.  You are talking about changing magnification after focusing at a short distance at a different magnification.  How much change in focus you experience when changing magnification under those circumstances depends on the focal length of the optic and the design of the whole optical system, so you can't make generalizations. 
 
Second, you don't know that anyone is lying to you, because the scope will technically focus at the advertised distances.  You just don't like the fact it doesn't maintain the same focus as you increase magnification at that very short distance, which may or may not be a design defect or poor quality.  Did you see the same issues at 25 yards?
 
Third, the magnifications you mention are indeed high for 15 yards, so focus will be critical because you have a very shallow depth of field, which is a function of magnification and the optic's focal length.
 
Fourth, S&B doesn't make a 10-50X scope.  They do make a 12.5-50X56, which is what you may be referring to, but that is a $3200 34mm main tube scope, so you couldn't hardly pick a more dissimilar scope to compare to the Crossfire.
 
Fifth, all of the scopes you mention will be affected by the same issue to varying degrees under the same conditions of extremely short viewing distance you describe.  How much change in focus you experience depends on several variables including focal length, magnification, and design of the entire optic.  It doesn't mean your unit is defective, only that it is less suited to the conditions you are using it in.
 
Sixth, your camera analogy is wrong.  Refocusing is usually required as you zoom in on objects at close distance.  You just don't notice it with most current cameras because they autofocus for you.
 
Your scope may be defective, but what you describe is not necessarily a defect or poor quality because it is quite common at such a short distance.  I realize you don't believe that, but you are simply incorrect.  If you aren't willing to accept that, then I suggest you continue buying more Leapers, Simmons, and BSA scopes that you speak highly of.  I don't care what brands you buy; I'm only trying to explain to you why what you observed is not at all uncommon and may not be indicative of a faulty scope.

bring'n the ole "A" game huh?? your guts must be feeling better.
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