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Yet Another AR-15 Scope Question

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neilbilly View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote neilbilly Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 12:07

Zeiss didn't get mentioned because at $300 you are still $100 short of their bottom of the line scope. 

If you tell me you've got $5 I'm not going to point out that outback steak house has sirloins on sale for $9.99


I'm not at all trying to diminish or under-estimate your buying power. I'm just saying that you asked for options around a certain price and that's what most of us have tried to give you. 


There are many people who post here that will spend 2x or more what they gave for the gun on optics. I can't do that and have a great deal of experience with scopes in the $100-300 range. You can get good gear for that. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 12:24
The Vortex Crossfire is Vortex's low end scope.  It is not in the same class as the Bushnell 4200.  Now if you were comparing the Vortex Viper to the 4200 I would say yes they are in the same class and optically they will be very similar.  The Crossfire will be more inline with the Bushnell Trophy which in there own rights are decent scopes.  But they are not in the same class as the Viper/4200.  That is why so many of us recommend the 4200 3-9x.  You are getting a scope that is usually two levels ahead of similar higher powered scopes of the same price. 

1 inch tube vs 30mm tube will have absolutely no affect on optical quality.  Having a 50mm objective over a 40mm objective will give you a exit pupil advantage at a certain point in the power range.  If you end up choosing a scope with a 16x top end then I would want a 50mm objective as well.  If you get a 3-9x a 40mm would work just fine. 

I realize it is hard to understand how less is more.  But having been through all these lower end 4-16x scope and 6-24x scopes then trying the Bushnell 4200, IORs, Meopta lower powered scopes less is in reality more.  The higher the mag the more the image quality goes down.  It will show all the flaws in the glass more so, the exit pupil will get smaller which will make the image look darker.  Mirage will be increased, heat waves coming off your barrel will be easier to see.  THe list goes on.  The higher the mag the better the optical quality needs to be so these things do not affect the view so much.

IMO if you are set on a 4-16x which I think is fine for what you are doing, I think that you should up your budget a little is all.  Look at the 4200 line in the 4-16x or the Viper line.  In the end you will get a better scope and will be able to see your target better. 

Sorry for seeming to be talking you out of the 4-16x its just I have been there and done that and think you would be happier with good glass with slight lower mag, than okay glass with high mag.  Its just my opinion, but it is something I have learned from being there myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 12:33
Oh an by the way I shoot out to 1000 yards with 10 as 12x all the time.  At 400 yards I sometimes only use 6 and 8x.  I am just not a magnification junky
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supertool73 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 13:49
Originally posted by mncarbine mncarbine wrote:


The Bushnell Elite 4200 is 4-16X40 with a 1" tube.  The Vortex is 4-16X50 with a 30mm tube.  I was led to believe 30mm was better than 1" and 50mm was better than 40mm.  So for the specifications, the Vortex seems better.  That brings us back to the glass.  The Bushnell scope is $420, the Vortex is $200.  Since I would be getting a smaller diameter scope, there is less light entering, demanding the Bushnell to perform that much better to offset the reduced light.  Is the glass in the Bushnell more than 2X as good as the Vortex?  If I took the two scopes out in the early morning or evening, in a low light situation, and looked at the same target at the same distance, would I see the target 2-3X as clear, as distinct?  I don't know.  That is where I need someone who has used both to tell me.


To explain this better.  The band light going through the scope is called exit pupil.  Because the band of light exits at your pupil.  The average human pupil during the day will dilate to 2 or 3mm is all.  In low light it will dilate to maybe 5 to 6mm.  The older you get the worse this gets as your pupils do not dilate as much.  Now you take your optic.  Lets look at a 3-9x40mm scope.  At 3x it will have 13.3mm band of light coming through that scope.  Take the objective size divided by the mag.  At 9x it will have 4.4mm band or light coming through the scope.  So for a day time scope that even at the highest power the band of light coming out of the scope is nearly twice the size of your pupil.  Now at low light at 7x the scope will have a 5.7mm exit pupil which for most people except a young person with exceptional eyes is enough light for you to see well in low light. 

30mm tube vs 1 inch tube has more to do with tube strength and available adjustment travel for windage and elevation.  It will have nothing to do with the band of light being transmitted through the scope.  As the lens system in both of them is much larger than the largest amount of exit pupil that is being transmitted out of the eye piece. 

Now one advantage to having a large exit pupil is perfect head placement is not as important.  Most scope on 3x you don't have to have your eye placed perfect as that band of light is bigger than your pupil so it give you a little wiggle room.  But when you crank that scope up to 16x or more as on some scopes then that exit pupil becomes sometime smaller than the pupil in your eye so anything but perfect eye placement and the scope suddenly goes black of has a black ring on one side of it. 

In low light in most cases you are not able to see at distance anyways.  So super high powered scopes are not needed.  But this is where glass quality comes into play.  You take two scopes of differing optical quality and the scope with the better glass is going to transmit a brighter picture as it will have less flaws in the glass to distort the picture regardless of what the exit pupil number say the better glass is going to transmit a better brighter picture to your eye.  Which means you can see better so you can shoot later. 

On sat I was out shooting my ARs.  I have a Bushnell 4200 3-9x on my 6.8 SPC.  I have a 3x ACOG on a .223 AR.  I was out shooting until I could no longer see my 100 yard target because it got dark on me.  With my Bushell at 3x I compared it to my ACOG.  I was able to the see target much better and later with the ACOG than with the 4200.  The ACOG just has flat out better glass.  Is it actually 3 times better since the price is 3 times more?  I doubt it, but it is noticeably better that for sure. 

Same thing goes with the Crossfire vs the 4200, is the 4200 2 times better?  Honestly I do not know for sure but I bet it is closer to 2 times than one would think. 

Hope that helps a bit. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 14:48
That is a lot of great information.  I really do appreciate all the detail as I am one big sponge now soaking up all the info I can.

After I wrote my last post, I called Bushnell.  I posed the same question to them that I did on here and that I asked Vortex.  Both Vortex and Bushnell gave me an identical answer:

4-16X50 standard crosshair

The one difference between the two people I talked to was Bushnell asked me how close I would shoot.  He was a bit concerned that the 4X might be too powerful if I shot too close so he thought I should also consider a 3-9X which is what I was looking at before Vortex suggested the 4-16X.  Seems both of them thought that at 200yds I would be better off with more than 9X.  They both said I could get by with the 9X, but would be happier with 16X at 200-300 yard range.  That means I need to think a lot about whether I will be shooting closer or further.  I know my 16" barrel isn't a long distance shooter and who wants to walk a mile to check their target :)

Another surprise when talking to Bushnell, they said I should also consider the 3200 series.  He said that because of the pupil size issue.  He thought I should try and stay in a 50mm objective lens.  The 4200 series doesn't have a 50mm in a 3-9, but the 3200 series has a 3-10X50.

When I asked the Bushnell guy about glass quality, he said the issue really was the coatings.  The 4200 is fully multi-coated, as is the Crossfire, but not the 3200 series.  That tells me, from a coating standpoint, that the Crossfire is more like the 4200 than the 3200.

I understand 1" vs. 30mm is about strength.  I am not hung up on that part.

As far as Zeiss goes, I realize they aren't in the price range for this conversation, but I was speaking across the board.  I just haven't seen the name Zeiss pop up much.

If I go back to the rating list on this site, I come up with the following:

Bushnell Elite 3200, Leupold VX-II, Millet Tactical/Buck Gold, Nikko Stirling, Nikon Buckmaster, Sightron SI & SII, Vortex Crossfire & Diamondback, Super Sniper Fixed

 

Burris Fullfield II & Timberline, Leupold Rifleman & VX-I, Leatherwood, Mueller, Nikon ProStaff, Simmons


I have heard a lot of good things about the Burris Fullfield II, and it sells for more than the Vortex, but it and the others in the second group are rated lower.

In the top of those two lists are the Bushnell 3200 and the Vortex Crossfire.  That group also includes the Sightron II and Buckmaster that I know some people like.

The Bushnell 4200 is three groups up from there.  Obviously considered by a lot of people to be a superior scope. 

I went back to get some more prices as there were some models I hadn't considered before.

Bushnell Elite 4200 2.5-10X40 Multi-X 380
Bushnell Elite 4200 2.5-10X50 Multi-X 470
Vortex Crossfire 2.5-10X50 V-brite Illum 160
Vortex Crossfire 3.5-10X50 V-Plex 170
Vortex Diamondback 3.5-10X50 Dead-Hold BDC 250
Bushnell Elite 3200 3-10X50 Multi-X 300
Bushnell Elite 4200 4-16X50 Multi-X 510
Vortex Crossfire 4-16X50 AO V-Plex 200
Vortex Crossfire 4-16X50 AO Mil Dot Ilum 250

If according to the chart from this forum above, the 3200 and Crossfire are considered equal quality, but the 3200 3-10X50 is $300, the Vortex is $170.  That means the Bushnell is almost double for a comparable lens using the opinion of this forum.  About the same price ratio on the 4-16X50.  The 4200 is $510, the Crossfire is $200.  The 3200 closest comparison is the 5-15X50 for $300. 

Just based on specifications, the Crossfire is the same as the 4200...  Without having the two to look through side by side it is hard for me to determine if I am ahead spending over $500 vs. $200.

If I buy the $200 scope and it is good enough, then I am a happy guy and I have enough in my pocket to buy another toy :)  If I get the Vortex and I am unhappy with it, I should be able to sell it for $150 and then buy some other scope.

Thanks VERY much for all the great info!




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 14:57
I would not worry to much about the bottom end difference of 3x and 4x.  Especially for target shooting and in many cases hunting it is just not that big of an issue.

I think you ought to call SWFA and ask them what they think of them.  I am sure they have them all in stock and can even go look through them and maybe be able to help in your decision.  Those guys get to try and use hundreds of scopes that u or I will never get the option to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote supertool73 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 14:59
You will be surprised how far a 16" barrel will shoot.  I thumped a coyote at a 400 yards with mine and my 4x scope.  I have hit man sized steel targets at 800 before.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 15:18
Just talked to Vortex again.  The Crossfire is Chinese glass, but you get Jap glass if you move up into the Diamondback....  The more I know, the more confused I get...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 15:24

Man you have definatley been thinking this thing out......I have a suggestion for you.  Call SWFA and talk to them, Brady, Christopher, Chris, hell any of them and aske them what they recommend.  If you are torn between the two I suggest asking them if you can buy both and send one back if you DON"T MOUNT IT.   Check with them first though.  Then when you get to look through them you may decide right away a clear winner.  Worth a try and may help

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 16:17
I was given a link to a subjective comparison between several lower cost models and the Diamondback won but a good margin.  That is a model I was already considering, especially after talking to Vortex again and finding out it was Jap glass vs. Chinese glass in the other ones.  I just went back through several brands like Zeiss, Nikon, and Weaver trying to find scopes in teh $300-400 range and there just wasn't anything to consider.  Seems to go up from the Diamondback you need to go hundreds up...  It looks like there is a Vortex in my future, but the Diamondback, not the Crossfire.

Thanks to everyone!

Lew
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SVT_Tactical Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/21/2010 at 16:19
Good deal.  Let us know when you finally hit htat checkout button and get it all setup
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April/22/2010 at 08:23
Was debating between the Diamondback and the Bushnell until I got more feedback which led me to look at the Vortex Viper instead.  Before I could pull the trigger, I was reminded about the Nikon Team Primos.  Trying to find out if anyone knows how they compare to the Bushnell and the Viper.  It is supposed an obsolete, re-badged Monarch, but which model and how it compares is a mystery.  Waiting to find out more about how that Nikon compares.

Thanks again!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mncarbine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May/03/2010 at 18:17
OK gang..one more day until my scope mount arrives, but weather hasn't been too nice for shooting lately so that is OK.

In the meantime, I am curious if anyone has gotten the Bushnell $15 fleece coat?  I am wondering if they are worth the $15 or not?

My RRA tactical handle thingy showed up today...came quick considering it was mailed late FRiday in UT.
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